Beethoven and The Devil's Trill sonata

[Preston]

I have recently heard The Devil's Trill sonata for the first time. I think I heard it a couple of years ago, but do not remember. For those of you who don't know what it is, it is a violin sonata by Giuseppe Tartini. The thing so fascinating about it is that Tartini had a dream where the devil came to him and played the violin for him. Tartini said that it was the most unbelievable and most virtuoso playing he had ever heard. He said the playing was so amazing that he felt like taking his violin and breaking it and never playing or writing music again. Believe me, I imagine that the playing was beyond anyone's imagination, unless you were Beethoven or someone like that! Anyway, the devil played Tartini the most beautiful song. The song of the devil. Tartini woke up from the dream and wrote down what he could remember, which wasn't much. Tartini said that the playing that he wrote down was so unbelievably far from the virtuosity of the devil's playing. But he wrote down what he could and hence, we have The Devil's Trill sonata.

I was wondering if any of you knew if Beethoven ever commented on, mentioned, etc., anything about The Devil's Trill sonata? Or any other composer. Or is there any information you all would like to add concerning the sonata?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...7s+Trill&hl=en

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Hofrat]

All I can add about the "Devil's Trill" is that it was written in 1714 when Tartini was 22 years of age. Tartini died in 1770, the year of Beethoven's birth.

As for Beethoven commenting or mentioning it, I find no references in Thayer or the Compendium about it.

[Preston]

Hofrat, thanks for the information. I can't help but wonder where did you found out about the date it was written? The things I have read about the sonata are that, they didn't know when it was written because Tartini never dated his works and also, he would change them even after many years.

[Hofrat]

Preston;

I found the date in the Hamlyn Illustrated Encyclopedia of Music.

[Michael]

I vaguely remember reading somewhere (or maybe I dreamt it) that certain themes came to Beethoven in his dreams. Considering that the man ate, drank and breathed music, this should not be too surprising.
If I did read it, I bet it was in something by Maynard Solomon.

Michael

[HaydnFan]

I have heard similar things about Haydn (about music coming to him in his dreams) and certainly, we know this is the case with Schubert (this is why he slept with his glasses on) though I don't know of any specific works which were conceived this way.

I must confess that music comes to me in my dreams where I am composing it but can never remember the music when I wake up. I am sure many other people have similar experiences.

[Cetto von Cronstorff]

I have heard similar things about Haydn (about music coming to him in his dreams) and certainly, we know this is the case with Schubert (this is why he slept with his glasses on) though I don't know of any specific works which were conceived this way.

I'm sorry to tell you that what you heard is wrong. There is no reliable source of Schubert having music come to him in his dreams. A nice urban legend.

[Hofrat]

I must confess that music comes to me in my dreams where I am composing it but can never remember the music when I wake up. I am sure many other people have similar experiences.

When I was writing my article on the Swedish composer Joachim Eggert, I hit an impasse. I went to bed where I dreamt the way around the impasse and upon awakening I was able to jot it down. However, as an accountant, I often wake up from dreams shouting "it does not balance!!"

[Peter]

I'm sorry to tell you that what you heard is wrong. There is no reliable source of Schubert having music come to him in his dreams. A nice urban legend.

I've no doubt the creative process continues during sleep - there is plenty of scientific evidence to back it up so just because we have no anecdotal evidence concerning Schubert doesn't mean his subconscious was unique in not functioning. If anything highly creative people are are more attuned to their subconscious than ordinary mortals and sleep is a means to that end.

[susanwen]

Albert Einstein believed that his best ideas came to him just as he was falling asleep. He often sat in a chair with an object in his hand: when he drifted to sleep, the object would fall and it would wake him, and then he could jot down his near-sleep ideas and images.

[Preston]

Honestly, I find what happened to Tartini to be supernatural. This is kind of hard for me to explain but I will try.

Imagine, Tartini new the violin well but not as well as how well the Devil played it. So, if he didn't know the violin as well as the devil played it then how would he have imagined it in the dream, impossible unless it is supernatural. Techniques and playing that Tartini couldn't have possibly known. I may not have explained that the best way, but believe me, it definitely must be supernatural. Also, Tartini could have never came up with the song that the Devil played. He may could have came up with the sonata as we know it today, but he said that the sonata is far from what the Devil played. So once again something else supernatural. Personally, I feel that a lot of dreams people, in general, have are somewhat supernatural, I will not get into that though.

Could we imagine if Beethoven had a dream where a piece of music came to him. Notes and themes so perfected and real, and in a dream! That would be an unimaginable dream, literally.

[Chris]

I do my best work while sleeping, actually.

[Peter]

Honestly, I find what happened to Tartini to be supernatural. This is kind of hard for me to explain but I will try.

Personally I wouldn't take the story which comes second hand from Lalande's the 'Voyage d'un Francais' so seriously! Even if he actually had such a dream, interpreting it literally seems illogical - how many of our own dreams are based on reality? I wonder though if it provided inspiration for Thomas Mann's Adrian Leverkuhn in Doctor Faustus? Schoenberg was supposedly the composer he had in mind, but the idea is similar.

[Preston]

Personally I wouldn't take the story which comes second hand so seriously... Even if he actually had such a dream, interpreting it literally seems illogical - how many of our own dreams are based on reality?

That is true, that the dream may not have happened. I agree that it would seem impossible, having a dream that last around 15 minutes, and then writing music for it! But I do feel it is definitely possible. I feel that this dream he had would have somehow been an amazingly realistic dream, and that is why Tartini took it so seriously.

If Beethoven, Schubert, etc. and other composers would have musical ideas appear in their head, while they were asleep and make a good song out of it, then what happened to Tartini, as far as realism, could definitely be possible.

[HaydnFan]

Well, I would imagine that even if Tartini had the dream, the music probably sounded better to him in the dream than it would actually sound, written out on paper (which is why he may have interpreted the "Devil's" playing as being otherworldly and high vituosic)

To make the assumption that there are "supernatural" forces at work here is a pretty hefty assumption (that these forces exist in the first place for example). I would think that it is more likely that the piece and dream were the result of Tartini's active imagination.