Piano Concerto's: Ashkenazy or Brendel, or...

[Preston]

Originally posted by Peter:
You are right Preston - 5 bars before the piano states the theme FF, the orchestra should crescendo from PP to FF - those chords and the horn entry just before the piano entry should be loud - that's what Beethoven wrote!

Yes!!!, and Beethoven wrote it good. The problem is, it is not played good all the time!

I have heard a number of recordings of the 1st movement to the 4th Concerto. As far as the horns kicking in loudly, I think that the orchestra Charles Hazlewood conducts, is the best one I have heard, surprisingly. The reason why is because in that recording, the one I posted, the horns are very very loud. In the others the horns don't seem to be as loud as that one. I feel that Beethoven intended for the horns to be ripping loud, as in the recording I posted. Because, I feel, it should build up to the solo piano being played fortissimo, but some recordings don't do it, and play the horns not loud enough.

Do the Emil Gilels, George Szell/Cleveland Orch. sound like this, especially the ripping loud horns?

Are there any other recordings with the ripping horns?

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"But well I know that God is nearer to me than to other artists; I associate with Him without fear; I have always recognized and understood Him and have no fear for my music- it can meet no evil fate." LVB

[This message has been edited by Preston (edited 11-14-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by Preston:
Yes!!!, and Beethoven wrote it good. The problem is, it is not played good all the time!

I have heard a number of recordings of the 1st movement to the 4th Concerto. As far as the horns kicking in loudly, I think that the orchestra Charles Hazlewood conducts, is the best one I have heard, surprisingly. The reason why is because in that recording, the one I posted, the horns are very very loud. In the others the horns don't seem to be as loud as that one. I feel that Beethoven intended for the horns to be ripping loud, as in the recording I posted. Because, I feel, it should build up to the solo piano being played fortissimo, but some recordings don't do it, and play the horns not loud enough.

Do the Emil Gilels, George Szell/Cleveland Orch. sound like this, especially the ripping loud horns?

Are there any other recordings with the ripping horns?

I can't recall as I have this set on LP which I haven't listened to in a long while - I'm not sure that it is available on CD. In anycase I wouldn't base my purchase of the 4th concerto simply on who plays the loudest horn, Gilels and the Cleveland give a magnificent account of the 5 concertos - he has recorded them with the USSR state orchestra and these are available on Brilliant classics at a very modest price.

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'Man know thyself'

[Preston]

In anycase I wouldn't base my purchase of the 4th concerto simply on who plays the loudest horn...

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'Man know thyself'

The reason that I have decided to try and find a recording with the louder horns, is because, to me, playing the horns quietly in Piano Concerto #4, would be like playing the first seconds in the first movement of the Fifth Symphony, in pianissimo.

Did you listen to the Beethoven Uncovered performance of it? I thought it was great, at least the recapitulation. What did you think, if you listened to it? I have already tried to contact Charles Hazlewood and the pianist to see if they based their performance on a recording that has already been released.

I got a response from the email address from Charles Hazlewood's site saying that he was in South Africa and that they will try to find out. I have not heard from the pianist.

I am going to go with Brendel or Ashkenazy, unless I get a response telling me something, thanks.

Preston

[Preston]

I can't recall as I have this set on LP which I haven't listened to in a long while - I'm not sure that it is available on CD. In anycase I wouldn't base my purchase of the 4th concerto simply on who plays the loudest horn, Gilels and the Cleveland give a magnificent account of the 5 concertos - he has recorded them with the USSR state orchestra and these are available on Brilliant classics at a very modest price.

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'Man know thyself'

Peter, I wanted you to know that I have decided to go with the Gilels set. I have been listening to some of his music on You Tube and he seems very into Beethoven, and I like that.

Do you know and would mind telling anything concerning Gilels thoughts towards Beethoven?

Thank you for the information.

I will let y'all know what I think of the Gilels recordings when I get the set.

[Ateach Asc]

RULE #1 of any Collection of Beethoven works... get them one at a time and with great care in the choice. The variations of interpretation and quality over the entire set of works are quite jarring.

For example, in the symphonic collections, the Philips label Heitink of the 9 symphonies are good in the 5th, 6th and 8th, but gosh awful in the 9th. In the piano sonatas category, the Robert Goode is really good int he 15th-23rd sonatas... but better interpretations appear in the other sonatas. As for the piano concertos... these definitely need different interpreters for each because they each have a very distinct style and tone of their own.

Brendel is good... Ashkenazy is good... but neither release themselves from their ego to pass completely into the conversation Beethoven wanted us to have with his music. So here again research on your own is very much required in order to get a satisfying set of interpretations.

[Preston]

RULE #1 of any Collection of Beethoven works... get them one at a time and with great care in the choice. The variations of interpretation and quality over the entire set of works are quite jarring.

For example, in the symphonic collections, the Philips label Heitink of the 9 symphonies are good in the 5th, 6th and 8th, but gosh awful in the 9th. In the piano sonatas category, the Robert Goode is really good int he 15th-23rd sonatas... but better interpretations appear in the other sonatas. As for the piano concertos... these definitely need different interpreters for each because they each have a very distinct style and tone of their own.

Brendel is good... Ashkenazy is good... but neither release themselves from their ego to pass completely into the conversation Beethoven wanted us to have with his music. So here again research on your own is very much required in order to get a satisfying set of interpretations.

Thank you greatly for the advice. I do want the best recordings available for my collection.

I agree, some recordings sound completely different from each other so it is important to hear before you buy. The problem is that you can't hear but only for a minute on Amazon.

[Tony John Hearne]

I heard a magical live recording of numbers one and two by Glenn Gould with a Canadian Orchestra conducted by Sir ??? If you can get hold of that it will stop you in your tracks

[JA Gardiner]

I heard a magical live recording of numbers one and two by Glenn Gould with a Canadian Orchestra conducted by Sir ??? If you can get hold of that it will stop you in your tracks

And I've just got the live recordings by Emil Gilels on the very aptly named Brilliant label! Conducted by Kurt Masur and accompanied by the Russian State Orchestra, they are lovely, especially the Emperor, but a bit slow in tempo sometimes and sound very, well, Russian! ( think volga boat song ). They are also accompanied by a goodly selection of the sonatas which makes a splendid package. Still prefer Brendel, Perahia or Ashkenazy for the concerti and Schnabel, Brendel or Ashkenazy for the sonatas though.

[Preston]

And I've just got the live recordings by Emil Gilels on the very aptly named Brilliant label! Conducted by Kurt Masur and accompanied by the Russian State Orchestra, they are lovely, especially the Emperor, but a bit slow in tempo sometimes and sound very, well, Russian! ( think volga boat song ). They are also accompanied by a goodly selection of the sonatas which makes a splendid package.

I don't know if you know this, I assume you do and that is why you posted, but I am planning on getting the Gilels recordings. There is one question I want to ask you, if you don't mind, how is the sound quality of the Gilels recordings?

Kind Regards,
Preston

[Preston]

JA, are you out there? I am seriously thinking about buying this recording and would really like to know how it sounds. Thank you for any help.

[JA Gardiner]

JA, are you out there? I am seriously thinking about buying this recording and would really like to know how it sounds. Thank you for any help.

Hi preston

Sorry about that - work has been absolutely manic lately as my friend Tony on this site will testify! I have now listened to the entire set. They are live recordings of a certain vintage so don't expect the highest quality from the sound, but generally they are fine and what they lose in sonic quality over his or other's studio recordings is more than made up for by the performance. The concerti are great. The sonatas in this set, esp. the named ones, are poorer in sound quality than the rest which is a shame as the performances are IMHO better than his studio recordings for DG. But at the price its difficult to quibble. Whatever you decide - enjoy!

[Preston]

Hi preston

Sorry about that - work has been absolutely manic lately as my friend Tony on this site will testify! I have now listened to the entire set. They are live recordings of a certain vintage so don't expect the highest quality from the sound, but generally they are fine and what they lose in sonic quality over his or other's studio recordings is more than made up for by the performance. The concerti are great. The sonatas in this set, esp. the named ones, are poorer in sound quality than the rest which is a shame as the performances are IMHO better than his studio recordings for DG. But at the price its difficult to quibble. Whatever you decide - enjoy!

Thank you JA.

[David1770]

The best recorded set of Beethovens Piano concertos for depth and insight alone belongs either to Alfred Brendel with Sir Simon Rattle or my personal favourite Solomon on Testament. With Solomon the sound can often be a little watery understandebly with the age of the recordings and the techniology of the time,but the interpretations are ethereal and with Cluytens the interpretation is beautifully weighted, a real treasure. I do believe that their are nevertheless many fine modern interpreters of Beethovens piano works, Kovacevich, Perahia, Kissin and a new favourite of mine Paul Lewis, among others, but the rustic charm of the old masters I believe has been lost somewhat in this over technical modern age.
I have not found a boxset of raptus` piano concertos that has pleased me entirely, this is to be expected. Arthur Rubinsteins early recordings are simply wonderful, such transcendental poetry. I do not think I have heard a finer performance of the fourth than his of the early 1950`s, the cadenza in the first movement is played at a much more relaxed tempo than say Wilhelm Kempf of Gilels and this consequently allows the musical line to really sing. Kovacevich on Phillips is a similar modern take. I recently heard Claudio Arraus fourth with Sir Colin Davis conducting. Davis, who I consider to be one of the greatest conductors of his generation, is complimentary to Arraus distinctive touch and sound, a wonderfully original interpretation and well worth a listen. Argerichs premier recording of the Third is also something very special and another personal recommendation. If you like interpretations of this nature, Mikhail Pletnev has just released a boxset and reminds me greatly of the spark that one finds with Shura Cherkasky.Really electric performances. Admittedly I am more a fan of the old school. If you can find earlier recordings of Backhaus with the Vienna Philharmonic especially the second and fourth or Leon Fleischer for the third you cant go far wrong. Personally if you have to buy a box set opt for Solomon or Backhaus from the old school or if you fancy something a bit more modern go for Stephen Bishop Kovacevich. Hope this helps!

[rjbca]

Single Best

Although there are some very fine sets, I would stick to individual performances, namely:

Concerto #1 - Michelangeli on DDG
A pristine performance - rumour was that there were cameras at the performance but no video has appeared - darn.

Concerto #2 - Argerich/Sinopoli on Philips.
Makes one long for more Beethoven recordings.

Concerto #3 - Ashkenazy/Solti on Decca/London
Often criticized for his Beethoven interpretations, but not here.

Concerto #4 - Pollini/Bohm on DGG
Flawless execution coupled with deep insights.

Concerto #5 - Kempff/Leitner on DGG
A Beethoven specialist - his sonata cycle is also highly recommended.