'Beethoven's New Style' (The Late Works)

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Schnabel, living in a time that there weren't old playable pianos around, seems to have realized the disadvantage of a modern piano. I once read that he played on prepared pianos that gave him more control over the sustain.

I have searched some days for some proof on the "prepared pianos", but have found none.
In his own book "My life and music"(1961) Schnabel explains why he has chosen to play a Bechstein rather than a Steinway, and he seems fully happy with that instrument, because it allows him to do what he wants.
So, I might have misread about prepared pianos, or the source was unreliable, but anyhow, it doesn't seem to be true, so I take it back.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Frankli:
Yes, that's more or less what the article says as well. It also points to examples in the Waldstein, where Beethoven used some possibilities typical for the instrument, while at other points he had to limit himself, because the instrument wouldn't allow him to do what he wanted. It all shows the extreme relationship between a particular composition and the piano that was used at the time Beethoven wrote it.

I don't know whether you agree but I find there is a difference between a reconditioned fortepiano and a new reconstruction which to my ears is a far better representation of the original's true abilities. I don't think playing on Beethoven's old Broadwood does either the composer or the manufacturer any favours.

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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
It would certainly sound less rushed at a quick tempo on the pianos of the time than it would on today's, all other things being equal. Let me know what you think of the two recordings posted here.

I enjoyed the Bardura-Skoda, in fact to be frank I prefer it to the Schnabel which does sound muddled in places. Bardura manages to bring off a rapid pace without compromising the detail of the score - Schnabel's technical ability seems to let him down occasionally and the part playing is not as clear as Bardura's.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't know whether you agree but I find there is a difference between a reconditioned fortepiano and a new reconstruction which to my ears is a far better representation of the original's true abilities. I don't think playing on Beethoven's old Broadwood does either the composer or the manufacturer any favours.

For the most part I would say the copies sound more perfect, whereas the originals have more colour. One problem I have noticed with some copies is that they overdo the hammer coatings, making the instrument sound dull.

I have a few Beethoven recordings using Broadwoods and the problem is consistant. This is why for Beethoven the vast majority of fp performers use Viennese School models. Beethoven's Broadwood is the best I have heard all things considered, though this may be because apparently the restoration did not remove its contemporary Viennese 'reconditioning'. Some of Tan's recording with it is very good, eg the 'British' variations, but some is awful, eg the Fantasia Op77 and Bagatelles Op126.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I enjoyed the Bardura-Skoda, in fact to be frank I prefer it to the Schnabel which does sound muddled in places. Bardura manages to bring off a rapid pace without compromising the detail of the score - Schnabel's technical ability seems to let him down occasionally and the part playing is not as clear as Bardura's.

But you should put Schnabel's technical flaws aside when considering the view of the metronome issue, as I did. Add to this the qualities of the contemporary pianos that allow for a more satisfactory result at the quicker tempo. Bearing these factors in mind I prefer Schabel's concept to Badura-Skoda's. If Schnabel's performance is close to B's metronome figure I would say the figure is 100% correct, again bearing these other factors in mind.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Frankli:
I know: this one is far from easy, it's a very short fragment easily missed while hearing the full work, but you are not that far away from the truth.
It's obvious that a modern piano would not be able to produce the spooky sound of this sample, but neither would a 1780 Stein do.

This one comes from the same recording, same piano, same composer:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/02.mp3

So this is a test for me! I thought you were uncertain about the piano yourself! I think I have stated my position already. I would say the instrument is much later than the Beethoven period, action is probably English compared to the latest Viennese actioned fortepianos I have heard (from the 1830s). By the tone I would guess German or Austrian. But remember as I said above my knowledge is limited in certain areas.

But you can make a modern piano sound something like this if you give it the right treatment, so stop messing me about. What is it quizmaster?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
But you should put Schnabel's technical flaws aside when considering the view of the metronome issue, as I did. Add to this the qualities of the contemporary pianos that allow for a more satisfactory result at the quicker tempo. Bearing these factors in mind I prefer Schabel's concept to Badura-Skoda's. If Schnabel's performance is close to B's metronome figure I would say the figure is 100% correct, again bearing these other factors in mind.

I wasn't considering simply the metronome mark - it could be the instrument but it seemed to me there was greater clarity of part playing by Bardura-Skoda.


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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
I wasn't considering simply the metronome mark - it could be the instrument but it seemed to me there was greater clarity of part playing by Bardura-Skoda.

I thought the metronome mark was the whole point of the debate. The clarity comes from a combination of the piano, the lack of mistakes and from the superior recording.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-17-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by Frankli:

But now, Rod: would you be able to say something about the instrument played here - and perhaps, to identify the music?
It's far from easy, but I just wonder.
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/01.mp3

Well, the music is the end of the development of the first movement of Schubert's C minor sonata, D.958.....

[Rod]

Originally posted by PDG:
Well, the music is the end of the development of the first movement of Schubert's C minor sonata, D.958.....

I'm surprised Peter didn't get that one, I've heard this music (a while ago admitedly) and didn't even recognise it! Perhaps it was the piano. Still I've listened to the larger extract and my impression was the music promises more than it actually delivers, and is somewhat melodramatic, so yes could be Schubert!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Peter:
I don't know whether you agree but I find there is a difference between a reconditioned fortepiano and a new reconstruction which to my ears is a far better representation of the original's true abilities. I don't think playing on Beethoven's old Broadwood does either the composer or the anufacturer any favours.

Pianist Jos van Immerseel (who performs Mozart very well) once defended his choise for a good replica over a bad original: "Mozart didn't play 200 years old pianos, did he?"
And that makes sense.
But every piano has its old character, and if one of these old pianos was restored well, like the piano on the two links that I provided in this thread, I don't see any problem in using it.
Besides, there is not always a copy available.
But also if the 1817 Broadwood had been restored perfectly, it just shouldn't have been the right instrument for Beethoven. Some of the works that he composed while he had the instruments in his possession, cannot even be played at all on the Broadwood.

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
So this is a test for me! I thought you were uncertain about the piano yourself! I think I have stated my position already. I would say the instrument is much later than the Beethoven period, action is probably English compared to the latest Viennese actioned fortepianos I have heard (from the 1830s). By the tone I would guess German or Austrian. But remember as I said above my knowledge is limited in certain areas.

But you can make a modern piano sound something like this if you give it the right treatment, so stop messing me about. What is it quizmaster?

Ok; nr 1 you know by now. Number 2 is from the Andante of the D 959 sonata, a movement which I guess was heavily inspired by the last movement of Beethoven's op. 109. Incredible music.
You hear it played on an 1825 Fritz. All I know about Fritz is that he was one of the piano builders of the new generation, to which Graf belonged as well. The piano is really ravishing, and belongs to the top of the Viennese piano building.
On a modern piano it can't possibly sound as clear. One of the reasons is the radically different aesthetics. Where in the early 19th c. (and before) they purposely built pianos with different characteristics/characters for the low, middle, and high registers. modern piano builders try to avoid differences in character and make it all sound smooth.
There is no composer like Schubert who pushed the ability of the Viennese pianos to imitate the orchestra to the limit so hard, and it can be heard everywhere in his late piano works.

[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by PDG:
Well, the music is the end of the development of the first movement of Schubert's C minor sonata, D.958.....

Right; I wondered if anyone would recognize it from such a short fragment!



[This message has been edited by Frankli (edited 09-18-2006).]

[Frankli]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm surprised Peter didn't get that one, I've heard this music (a while ago admitedly) and didn't even recognise it! Perhaps it was the piano. Still I've listened to the larger extract and my impression was the music promises more than it actually delivers, and is somewhat melodramatic, so yes could be Schubert!

Well, melodramatic.... yes, perhaps somewhat. But compare it to the last variation of op. 109, which it has many similarities with. "Melodramatic" just doesn't really cover it. It's an amazing, anarchistic, modernistic, uncommon page in Schubert's oeuvre. And the form: a recitative, a cadenza?

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm surprised Peter didn't get that one, I've heard this music (a while ago admitedly) and didn't even recognise it! Perhaps it was the piano. Still I've listened to the larger extract and my impression was the music promises more than it actually delivers, and is somewhat melodramatic, so yes could be Schubert!

I missed it actually! Having just listened I'm not sure I would have got it though towards the end there is a bar that is reminiscent of the opening of the sonata. This opening theme is very similar to Beethoven's 32 variatins in C minor which Schubert may have known but probably didn't play as he was not an accomplished pianist.


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'Man know thyself'