-On the Origins of the Vienna Classical Period and other Matters –

[Rod]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Rod,

I take your point. It would be tedious to list over and over and from many different perspectives the 'fault lines' in convention if, at the same time, people simply don't want to know of them, let alone discuss their implications. One must not publicise the fact, the actual fact, that, for example, The Marriage of Figaro' was in existence and being peformed at Frankfurt more than a year before its 'premiere' in Vienna. Such a thing is preposterous - if not for the fact that it just happens to be true. Just happens to be supported by documentary evidence. So Taboga must be crazy. This Newman too. If such a thing from hundreds happens to have been known but suppressed for over 100 years by 'Mozart experts' and if nobody wants to accept it, who is crazy and who is not ? In such an Orwellian world people (as Simon and Garfunkel said) just believe what they want to believe and 'disregard the rest'. That's their privilege.

Thanks for the suggestion. Thanks to others for their patience. Thanks to this site.

Well you know I think there may be room for investigation with the vast number of Mozart and Haydn works we have. The further back in time you go the more likely such 'anomalies' will occur. I have my own experience of the this with Handel whereby numerous 'alien' compositions were inserted by unscrupulous contemporary publishers and some are still advertised as Handel's today. But is all this particularly relevant to a Beethoven Forum?

With Beethoven the same has happened but the small number of pieces in question are well known (like the Modlinger Dances) and there is little argument on the matter these days. This is why I told you to avoid looking at Beethoven in your research.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-30-2006).]

[robert newman]

Hi Rod, it's one of those things where the study of one thing affects our understanding of others. We can't really examine the Vienna Classical Period without considering Haydn, Mozart and Beethoven, its three most celebrated characters. And all the more when there is a case for saying certain events (officially suppressed) had real impact on Beethoven's early career also. It's not so much a Luchesi Admiration Society (fascinating as that story is) but something far more important than him - the extent to which history can be (and often has been) rewritten or falsified at the expense of reality. That (to me) is the real issue.

For a handful of modern reseachers to invent such things, to see them within the lives of three separate composers and show they had historical relevance to all three - such a thing can hardly be dismissed as sheer coincidence. So it provokes reactions. It just happens to be fact. With implications for our understanding of music history. Certainly for mine.

Again, thanks to this forum.

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

One must not publicise the fact, the actual fact, that, for example, The Marriage of Figaro' was in existence and being peformed at Frankfurt more than a year before its 'premiere' in Vienna. Such a thing is preposterous - if not for the fact that it just happens to be true. Just happens to be supported by documentary evidence. So Taboga must be crazy. This Newman too. If such a thing from hundreds happens to have been known but suppressed for over 100 years by 'Mozart experts' and if nobody wants to accept it, who is crazy and who is not ?

Back in April Robert you said you would provide the information for the playbill at Frankfurt - could we have the exact wording (which you say was published) now please?

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'Man know thyself'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Peter:
Cannabich!

Ha! Ha!

Peter, you have a fantastic memory remembering way back in April that Robert would provide certain information. My hat's off to you!


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'Truth and beauty joined'

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 08-30-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited 08-30-2006).]

[Joy]

Originally posted by PDG:

Originally posted by Joy:
I want to know what Taboga's been smoking!

Joy, I've a feeling that you're not taking this at all seriously. Now, back into your orchestra pit and pay attention.....

Yes Sir!!!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Joy:
Ha! Ha!

Peter, you have a fantastic memory remembering way back in April that Robert would provide certain information. My hat's off to you!

That's nothing, sometimes I've been saying here verbatim the same words I said at the Edepot B Forum 7 years ago! Heck, when you always get it right first time why change a winning formula?

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-30-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

I have read of this Frankfurt 'Figaro' several times. I have (back in April as you say) been refering to it time after time. Its playbill exists. It was discovered in the early 20th century. One would have expected, by now, that some reference to it might have featured in Mozart forums. It has not. And therefore, (contrary to your assertion that I am not giving you information) I have given you -

1. The date when it was first reported
2. The name of the person who reported it
3. The place where it was staged
4. Many posts suggesting that Mozart did not write this opera.

So if you say that I have not provided this board with evidence (the most recent being yesterday, where Professor G. Taboga refers to it in correspondence with Prof. Chailly of Italy), then, you can believe what you wish.

I do not own this playbill. May I suggest that you obtain a copy from Prof.G Taboga, who does have access to it ?

The point is surely this - from April until now nobody has bothered to do more than heap scorn on a fact that has been known for virtually a century - the existence of playbill that is simply no part of any discussions on the Marriage of Figaro because it predates by more than 1 year the premiere held at Vienna in May of 1786.

If you require an email address of Prof. Taboga please let me know.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Peter,

I have read of this Frankfurt 'Figaro' several times. I have (back in April as you say) been refering to it time after time. Its playbill exists. It was discovered in the early 20th century. One would have expected, by now, that some reference to it might have featured in Mozart forums. It has not. And therefore, (contrary to your assertion that I am not giving you information) I have given you -

1. The date when it was first reported
2. The name of the person who reported it
3. The place where it was staged
4. Many posts suggesting that Mozart did not write this opera.

So if you say that I have not provided this board with evidence (the most recent being yesterday, where Professor G. Taboga refers to it in correspondence with Prof. Chailly of Italy), then, you can believe what you wish.

I do not own this playbill. May I suggest that you obtain a copy from Prof.G Taboga, who does have access to it ?

The point is surely this - from April until now nobody has bothered to do more than heap scorn on a fact that has been known for virtually a century - the existence of playbill that is simply no part of any discussions on the Marriage of Figaro because it predates by more than 1 year the premiere held at Vienna in May of 1786.

If you require an email address of Prof. Taboga please let me know.

Quite extraordinary that you haven't bothered to find out the exact wording of such an important piece of evidence - especially as in your previous lengthy postings on the topic in 4 parts you failed to provide any DOCUMENTARY EVIDENCE, despite being asked by numerous posters on several occasions.
A playbill you say - well does that mean it was performed as an opera or as a play? If as an opera who does it say wrote the music and libretto? Does it say Kraus? Please let us know asap - let us see the facts of this playbill. Thanks.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 08-30-2006).]

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

I want to make you a fair and I think reasonable offer. Show us through this forum, if you can, this playbill being discussed or even refered to anywhere at all on any Mozart or musical forum on the entire internet and I will, in return, out of gratitude, obtain for you personally (though you can so easily obtain one for yourself by writing to Mr Taboga) a copy of the said playbill and its text from Frankfurt of 1785.

Regardless of whether that Frankfurt performance was or was not the same as that staged a year later, or whether it was cancelled or not etc. is at present not able to be known. But its relevance is, I think, obvious to those who would fairly discuss the subject of that opera. Yes ? How is it then Peter that we are virtually a century later since discovery of that playbill without a single reference to it on Mozart forums ? And who (other than Taboga and myself) have been trying to draw attention to its existence ? May I suggest nobody ?

At some point we really must break out of this 'supermarket' style learning, where we do nothing and where we expect it all to be provided for us without switching on our brains. I suggest (I think reasonably) that anyone interested in this matter can and should contact Prof. Taboga personally asking him to provide the full text or even a copy if (and only if) they deem it worthwhile for them to obtain it.

The old proverb is true, 'You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'.



[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-30-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Peter,

I want to make you a fair and I think reasonable offer. Show us through this forum, if you can, this playbill being discussed or even refered to anywhere at all on any Mozart or musical forum on the entire internet and I will, in return, out of gratitude, obtain for you personally (though you can so easily obtain one for yourself by writing to Mr Taboga) a copy of the said playbill and its text from Frankfurt of 1785.

Regardless of whether that Frankfurt performance was or was not the same as that staged a year later, or whether it was cancelled or not etc. is at present not able to be known. But its relevance is, I think, obvious to those who would fairly discuss the subject of that opera. Yes ? How is it then Peter that we are virtually a century later since discovery of that playbill without a single reference to it on Mozart forums ? And who (other than Taboga and myself) have been trying to draw attention to its existence ? May I suggest nobody ?

At some point we really must break out of this 'supermarket' style learning, where we do nothing and where we expect it all to be provided for us without switching on our brains. I suggest (I think reasonably) that anyone interested in this matter can and should contact Prof. Taboga personally asking him to provide the full text or even a copy if (and only if) they deem it worthwhile for them to obtain it.

The old proverb is true, 'You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'.

[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-30-2006).]

I'm sorry Robert but if you are going to come on this forum and make wild accusations about a major work such as Mozart's Marriage of Figaro the onus is on YOU to provide the evidence. To say "Regardless of whether that Frankfurt performance was or was not the same as that staged a year later, or whether it was cancelled or not etc. is at present not able to be known" is simply not good enough - tell us what is says or stop making such claims.

This is a Beethoven forum and I have no interest in the policy of any other forum - that the Mozart forum have chosen to ignore this is probably far more sensible than I'm being in allowing this debate at all on this forum. I have no intention of engaging in correspondence with taboga.

I repeat that it is extraordinary that you don't know what this document says and yet you claim it as damning proof. I'll also repeat the basic questions - is it a play or an opera? If it is an opera who is named as composer and librettist?

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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear SR,

I note you have nothing to contribute in the way of criticising the content of the post that began this thread. I honestly sympathise with your obvious need to deal in absurdities or to personalise issues.

Honestly, the greatest discovery you are likely to make in these areas will be that of recognising your own ignorance. But yours is of a rather special kind - that which comes by you choosing to remain so.

Your suggestion that I 'spend some money on my own website' is a good one. You might try the same idea yourself.

It is not controversy that ruins a thread, it's the attitudes of those who have an opportunity to consider issues fairly but who misuse it to slur others without contributing anything positive themselves.

Robert...

I have watched you on OpenMozart, MozartForum, Classical newsgroup, a private
Mozart board and now Beethoven Reference.
You have been wrong most of the time and have been proven so on numerous occasions.
You always fail to come up with documentation, because it doesn't exist.

Trust me on this, disagreement with you hardly equates to ignorance.

I do have a website of my own. I suggest the same for you again. I think it is a very positive input to suggest that you form your own discussion board, and stop
using other peoples space, bandwidth, and hard work to spread your ideas. Be a man Bob pay your own way.

Best of luck

Steve

[robert newman]

Dear Steve,

Show me where I have been wrong. I have written far more on this subject of the supposed careers of Mozart, Haydn and early Beethoven than you probably ever will. If I do not have information I point you to where it can be obtained.

In saying I have contributed to many forums you are of course entirely right. It would be fair to say that your criticisms are conspicuous by their absence.

But thanks - I will always be a man in pointing out that some merely consume and others produce. What is generally believed on a whole range of issues related to the Vienna Classical Period is full of errors and is the subject of extraordinary suppression. Better to be an eagle that flies free than a carping crow who sits on a telephone line only to condemn the works of others.

I want to thank Peter for allowing me the time and chance to express my deep dissatisfaction with online websites as far as the 'official careers' of Haydn and particularly Mozart is concerned. It was history itself that made a virtually suppressed character named Andrea Luchesi so significant for the careers of those most associated with the Vienna Classical Period. And yet truth has that habit of asserting itself. The impact of these things had some significance on the early career of Beethoven as has often been argued here.

If any person needs to have sources for anything I have written here they can write to me at any time and I will be happy to oblige.

Thanks to all fair minded/neutral readers of my posts and best wishes to Peter and others of this forum.

Robert Newman


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-30-2006).]

[Rod]

I would have had more respect for those members of this Forum with an expressed interest and appreciation of Mozart (you all know who you are, moderators not excluded) who are capable of spending hours scaning their text books and the internet in search of historical evidence, if they had on one single occasion felt confident enough in their knowledge of the music to site this as evidence in itself one way or another. Yet this has not happened on any occasion since Mr Newman arrived at this site. I have without effort successfully wrote off all of Roberts theories about Beethoven with just a couple of paragraphs of musical assessment of the most basic level.

It's all talk talk talk...

Go on children, you can rabbit on some more, you might impress a few novices.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 08-30-2006).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:
Dear Steve,

Show me where I have been wrong. I have written far more on this subject of the supposed careers of Mozart, Haydn and early Beethoven than you probably ever will. If I do not have information I point you to where it can be obtained.

In saying I have contributed to many forums you are of course entirely right. It would be fair to say that your criticisms are conspicuous by their absence.

But thanks - I will always be a man in pointing out that some merely consume and others produce. What is generally believed on a whole range of issues related to the Vienna Classical Period is full of errors and is the subject of extraordinary suppression. Better to be an eagle that flies free than a carping crow who sits on a telephone line only to condemn the works of others.

I want to thank Peter for allowing me the time and chance to express my deep dissatisfaction with online websites as far as the 'official careers' of Haydn and particularly Mozart is concerned. It was history itself that made a virtually suppressed character named Andrea Luchesi so significant for the careers of those most associated with the Vienna Classical Period. And yet truth has that habit of asserting itself. The impact of these things had some significance on the early career of Beethoven as has often been argued here.

If any person needs to have sources for anything I have written here they can write to me at any time and I will be happy to oblige.

Thanks to all fair minded/neutral readers of my posts and best wishes to Peter and others of this forum.

Robert Newman


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 08-30-2006).]

Well Robert I allowed you to have your say because I too want the historical truth and I am quite prepared to accept that more research into these areas is necessary - indeed I do believe that works may well have been misattributed, but of course not on the scale you are suggesting and not without indisputable evidence. It seems to me that much of your argument is speculation and lacking in documented fact, despite your claims to the contrary. When pressed, you are evasive and then perhaps disappear.

Since you made much of this Frankfurt playbill I thought you could at least present the information it contains. For what it is worth I suspect Grossman's theatre company may well have planned a staged performance of the Beaumarchais play translated into German for Frankfurt - Emanuel Schikaneder’s troupe of actors had also planned such a performance in Vienna 1785.



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'Man know thyself'

[SR]

Originally posted by Peter:
Well Robert I allowed you to have your say because I too want the historical truth and I am quite prepared to accept that more research into these areas is necessary - indeed I do believe that works may well have been misattributed, but of course not on the scale you are suggesting and not without indisputable evidence. It seems to me that much of your argument is speculation and lacking in documented fact, despite your claims to the contrary. When pressed, you are evasive and then perhaps disappear.

Since you made much of this Frankfurt playbill I thought you could at least present the information it contains. For what it is worth I suspect Grossman's theatre company may well have planned a staged performance of the Beaumarchais play translated into German for Frankfurt - Emanuel Schikaneder’s troupe of actors had also planned such a performance in Vienna 1785.

Peter/Rod

Mr Newman has been responded to on various websites by people of as low a stature as myself and as high as Neil Zaslaw. The end result is always a lack of documentation. We are not talking about missatribution in many cases. Taboga, parroted by Newman claims Mozart's last symphony is not by Mozart. Mozart kept a catalogue of his works
and enters that symphony in it. Therefore not a missatribution. Their stance must be that Mozart is a liar/thief. Mozart stole, or purchased the Jupitor. Pretty strong stuff to present without documentation.

I apologize to Peter for any comments off the topic of Beethoven that I have made here
I will not return to this site except to
discuss my feelings about and interest in his work.

Regards

Steve