-On the Origins of the Vienna Classical Period and other Matters –

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Dear Peter,

In respect of sources saying that Beethoven was a pupil of Mozart (which are truly voluminous) I provided an example of teachers themselves teaching this as fact to pupils - surely of far more importance than any single textbook entry. I noted the fact that such a view was deemed, in writing to music students, to be necessary for them to believe. In short, such errors are regarded by teachers of music history to be taught. But you know and I know it simply is not so. Haydn taught nothing to Beethoven and nor did Mozart. However, on such a small point I think we have both said enough. What counts is reality rather than dispute.

Regards

Well there is a load of nonsense taught I agree, especially these days with the rubbish available on the web - this site believe it or not is interested in historical fact which is why I'm pushing you all the way to provide conclusive evidence. However I was pointing out that it is not the official line taken by biographers past or present and certainly if anyone had claimed such a thing when I was at the Academy they would have soon been put right. When Beethoven is described as having learnt from Haydn and Mozart it is from the music itself not the persons concerned.

I would like you now to deal with my C.53.1 point - As a document of the Bonn library, did Luchesi relist works already listed by Neefe, or did he simply continue where he left off?

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'Man know thyself'

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Sun dried Tommasini Ravioli with cheese ! And presto pesto 'ma non troppo' !

Robert, please stop straying off topic.....(you're giving me indigestion)...

[PDG]

I cannot suddenly believe (rubbing my eyes) that Beethoven was ever a pupil of Mozart.

[robert newman]

OK PDG. I won't stray off topic. Somebody got us all tied up in spaghetti. Tricky stuff. But nice while it lasted.

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

The subject of catalogue C.53.1 is complex but I will post on it in a few hours once I've looked carefully through all the notes.

It is a hand written catalogue begun after 1784 and, certainly, it was in use up to around 1794 when the chapel was closed. Its title page is missing.

Also, we know for sure that the Inventory made in Bonn in 1784 (Neefe/Fries) used black ink to give numbers/references to each work while red ink was sometimes used when checks were made on these and new scores after 1784. So it is not unusual for a single score to have several sorts of evidence of having previously been listed. This fact helps to some degree show what was where when - this besides, of course the Inventory document itself. To complicate this even more, many of the scores now at Modena from Bonn have had their covers deliberately removed and ink references either removed or mutilated. In some cases mutilated with clear intention to remove what was written on the page.

But yes, I will try to simplify this as well as I can. It's a very important subject and because, I know for sure, there are several senses in which the true purpose/function of C.53.1 is paradoxical. I hope to show this clearly in my post. It was the last official record made of the Bonn musical archives and is therefore of immense and obvious significance.

Regards

[robert newman]

Peter, I have looked quickly through all the notes I have and think it may be best, if you agree, to have a new thread entitled - 'The Musical Archives at Bonn 1784-1794') - since the Catalogue C.53.1 was a chapel document and has relation to the inventory made earlier in May 1784.

I will post this material in 3 parts. Starting with a very brief summary of the situation just prior to the Inventory of 1784. Then introducing C.53.1 and finally ending in part 3 with short notes on the fate of those music archives now at Modena after closure of the chapel in late 1794.

If you do not want to have a thread dealing with these things please tell me. I will submit them for general reference use although, of course, I will try to answer any points that may be raised on what I post.

Regards

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

OK PDG. I won't stray off topic. Somebody got us all tied up in spaghetti. Tricky stuff. But nice while it lasted.

Well done, sir! I really must join you and Rod for one of your fabled coffee mornings sometime. Hmmm, cappuccino and a biscotti for just 69p at J D Wetherspoons. Literally, just the biscuit!...

[robert newman]

Wetherspoons sounds very civilized - I hope Rod will also agree. Where is the branch you have in mind ? I am more than happy to come along if I am free. I want to ask Rod more about his music collection and am writing here whenever possible in less than 3 paragraphs to get into his good books !

Rgds

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Peter, I have looked quickly through all the notes I have and think it may be best, if you agree, to have a new thread entitled - 'The Musical Archives at Bonn 1784-1794') - since the Catalogue C.53.1 was a chapel document and has relation to the inventory made earlier in May 1784.

I will post this material in 3 parts. Starting with a very brief summary of the situation just prior to the Inventory of 1784. Then introducing C.53.1 and finally ending in part 3 with short notes on the fate of those music archives now at Modena after closure of the chapel in late 1794.

If you do not want to have a thread dealing with these things please tell me. I will submit them for general reference use although, of course, I will try to answer any points that may be raised on what I post.

Regards

OK Robert - this thread has reached our 5 page maximum anyway and therefore will be closed - (not for any other reasons!).

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'Man know thyself'