-On the Origins of the Vienna Classical Period and other Matters –

[robert newman]

Peter asks for a single source saying that Mozart was a teacher to the young Beethoven. I can do better than that.

Here is an excerpt from a website designed for teaching children about music history - the name is called www.classicsforkids.com

Preceding the section on that site called the Ludwig van Beethoven Quiz Paper is an instruction to students (and I quote) -

'You MUST know the following information'

And what information MUST students have ? Well, here is Question 3 from Section 1 of that same Ludwig van Beethoven Quiz Section -

Q. 'What relationship did Beethoven have to Mozart and Haydn' ?

and the answer is given as follows -

A. 'He was a student of both'.


[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-10-2006).]

[Frankli]

Preceding the section on that site called the Ludwig van Beethoven Quiz Paper is an instruction to students (and I quote) -
'You MUST know the following information'
And what information MUST students have ? Well, here is Question 3 from Section 1 of that same Ludwig van Beethoven Quiz Section -
Q. 'What relationship did Beethoven have to Mozart and Haydn' ?
and the answer is given as follows -
A. 'He was a student of both'.

Hmm. You might be interested to read Tia DeNora's "Beethoven and the Construction of Genius: Musical Politics in Vienna, 1792-1803" published in 1995. It's about putting Beethoven on the market as a new product, even as "the next Mozart", and hence Waldstein's "...you shall receive Mozart's spirit from Haydn's hands." Both Haydn and Beethoven would profit from being connected with each other. Very blasphemic stuff indeed, but it's stimulating to try to understand the relationship between B, M and H from this point of view.

Btw I do believe that at the time there was no greater admirer of Mozart than Beethoven, and no-one who better understood Mozart's genius than Beethoven. It is expressed in his music, in the fact that he had a drawing of Mozart's funeral on the wall, and from some of his letters.
Last but not least from the fact that he allowed Piringer to call Mozart "The King of All Musicians", and Beethoven his "Generalissimus".

[robert newman]

Yes, certainly, from a young age in Bonn Beethoven had been told that Mozart was the summit of musical achievement in Vienna. In 1783 of course there is Neefe's statement to Cramer's Magazine in which Beethoven is spoken of -

'If he (Beethoven) continues like this he will be, without doubt, the new Mozart'

Which is very interesting in itself. It certainly begs the question of the basis on which Neefe could say this. At the time Mozart was 28. He had achieved fame by the highly publicised tours in Europe as a child and as a youth. He was undoubtedly a major keyboard player for his time. But what, exactly, was the 'new Mozart' that Neefe and others had in mind in 1783 ? It was surely not that of being a writer of symphonies since none were in print. It was not as a writer of operas, since (with the exception of Die Entfuhrung aus dem Serail) there had been none to speak of for years. It must surely, at that time, have been based on Beethoven's wonderful talents as a keyboard virtuoso. It is no coincidence that his first published work, the Dressler Variations emphasise this talent. Nor that his early published works involved the piano. Therefore, I think, the sense in which Beethoven is described at Bonn as a 'new Mozart' is surely not that of compositional ability but mainly of his performance/improvisatory skills on piano. And this ties in too with the anecdotal report of Beethoven describing Mozar's playing style as 'choppy'.

Notice how all this is set to one side as the legend grew that it related to so much more.

Mozart was a great pianist, for sure. But so too was Beethoven. I venture to suggest that Mozart could have learned a lot from Beethoven even in composition by 1787, the year when they supposedly met. Small wonder there is no evidence they were together for any real period of time.

p.s. Does anyone know what German word is used to give us 'choppy' in that context - Beethoven's description of Mozart's piano playing ?




[This message has been edited by robert newman (edited 09-10-2006).]

[Frankli]

Therefore, I think, the sense in which Beethoven is described at Bonn as a 'new Mozart' is surely not that of compositional ability but mainly of his performance/improvisatory skills on piano. And this ties in too with the anecdotal report of Beethoven describing Mozar's playing style as 'choppy'.

My guess is that Beethoven's skills as a composer also had been acknowledged yet, or that at least his promise as a composer had been recognized.

p.s. Does anyone know what German word is used to give us 'choppy' in that context - Beethoven's description of Mozart's piano playing ?

Some context might be useful. It is Czerny who writes this:

"Hierauf ging er mit mir die zu diesem Lehrbuch gehörigen Übungsstücke durch, und machte mich vorzüglich auf das Legato aufmerksam, das er selber so unübertrefflichen Art in seiner Macht hatte, und das zu jener Zeit alle andern Pianisten auf dem Fortepiano für unausführbar hielten, indem damals: noch von Mozart's Zeit: das gehackte und kurz abgestossene Spiel Mode war. [...] Auch hat mir in späteren Jahren Beethoven erzählt, dass er Mozart mehrmals spielen gehört, und dass dieser, da zu seiner Zeit die Erfindung des Fortepiano noch in ihrer Kindheit war, sich auf den damals mehr gebraüchlichen Flügeln ein Spiel angewohnt hatte, welches keineswegs für die Fortepiano passte."

I think that this is the quote which is the source of Mozart's "gehackte und abgestossene Spiel".

First, Beethoven in the first place aims at the pianos from Mozart's time that were (in his view) rather imperfect because of their lack of legato possibilities, but just concludes that Mozart's playing style had been shaped too much by these pianos.
In the second place, we don't know how much we can rely on Czerny, who was probably influenced by the English piano, which differed so much from the Viennese kind.
Listening to Mozart's late piano concerti, and knowing that Mozart performed them himself, I can hardly believe that he really played them choppy.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Joy:
You are definitely NOT a spaghetti brain, Ha!

Thank you very much for your vote of confidence!

[robert newman]

Absolutely not. I think spaghetti came in to the conversation but not in regard to yourself or anyone else.

Regards

[robert newman]

By mid-1783 Mozart's Vienna reputation was chiefly that of his skill as a performer. He had only just begun the long series of concerts that was to bring forth the concertos. In fact, looking at it in detail, this is still a year before he even begins his thematic catalogue. No piano concertos were yet published. It's interesting to see too -

413 1782/3 Vienna Concerto for Piano No. 11 F Major
414 1782 Vienna Concerto for Piano No. 12 A Major
415 1782/3 Vienna Concerto for Piano No. 13 C Major

These 3 works are really the beginning of his Vienna series. I think they clearly indicate that Mozart as a performer on keyboard (and only recently as a composer of these works) was really what was being alluded to in Cramer's Magazine of 1783. His (Mozart's) compositional ability was far less acknowledged. He had written very little of real value. It was many years, for example, since his rather sub-standard quartets.

Without wishing to press this too hard I do think this compositional aspect was uppermost in Neefe's mind in saying that Beethoven could be the next 'Mozart'. And of course as a virtuoso is precisely how Beethoven himself first made a name for himself in Vienna.

[Frankli]

Small miscommunication here. I was not referring to Neefe's remarks (in Cramer's Magazin), which definitely refer to Beethoven's performing capacities, but to Waldstein's entry in the album in which Beethoven's friends wrote their remarks and wishes just before Beethoven would set off forever to Vienna:

"The Genius of Mozart is still mourning and weeping the death of her pupil. She found a refuge but no occupation with the inexhaustible Haydn; through him she wishes once more to forma union with another. With the help of the assiduous labour you shall receive Mozart's spirit from Haydn's hands."

[robert newman]

I regret that by the time Beethoven set off for Vienna he was very much under the patronage and care of those who were part of the very same 'establishment' on which Haydn and Mozart's careers had risen to such huge status.

Certainly, the issue of propaganda comes in to it though, of course, in the case of Beethoven all that was said of him was entirely valid.

Regards

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

OK Peter, Luchesi was the pupil of Beethoven. This explains the sontatas published at Bonn Op.1 whose style and content so strikingly anticipate those Beethoven also wrote years later. And Beethoven is still teaching Luchesi years later when, according to one source at least, correcting is going on of a cantata for George Cressner. So it wasn't Luchesi correcting Beethoven but vice versa. It was of course part of Beethoven's task to teach music at Bonn - and Luchesi was a willing pupil. It was Beethoven's duty to write 2 cantatas for state at the death of Joseph and the accession of Leopold. Not Luchesi (who was merely Beethoven's pupil).
Etc. etc ! Luchesi knew so little of music that he is not recorded as having written a single musical work of note during his 20 years or so as Kapellmeister at Bonn. He was no more than a second rate pupil of Beethoven. And he became a student within months of Beethoven's birth, in 1770. How else is one to explain it ?

Well if we are to descend to this level of sarcasm we aren't going to get any further -it would be more constructive to actually answer the questions I raised particularly concerning C.53.1

Your quoting a website is hardly the sort of evidence I was looking for when you claimed that 'countless books describe Beethoven as having been Mozart's pupil for months'. Not my idea of you having 'done better than that' so could you now give me the proper evidence to back this claim or is it yet another example of your not understanding the word FACT? Let me save you the trouble:

Thayer - "the lessons given were few"

Marek - "Beethoven may have taken a few casual lessons from Mozart"

Solomon - "sent to Bonn to play for (or even have lessons with) Mozart. But his stay lasted not more than 2 weeks..."

Robbins-Landon - "but it is doubtful Ludwig received any serious instruction from Mozart"

Incidentally your star witness for the Cressener cantata (Maurer) also claimed "Van den Eeden remained his only teacher in thorough-bass"


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 09-11-2006).]

[PDG]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Absolutely not. I think spaghetti came in to the conversation but not in regard to yourself or anyone else.

Regards

I prefer Ravioli, especially his first three sonatas.

[robert newman]

Dear Peter,

In respect of sources saying that Beethoven was a pupil of Mozart (which are truly voluminous) I provided an example of teachers themselves teaching this as fact to pupils - surely of far more importance than any single textbook entry. I noted the fact that such a view was deemed, in writing to music students, to be necessary for them to believe. In short, such errors are regarded by teachers of music history to be taught. But you know and I know it simply is not so. Haydn taught nothing to Beethoven and nor did Mozart. However, on such a small point I think we have both said enough. What counts is reality rather than dispute.

Regards

[robert newman]

Sun dried Tommasini Ravioli with cheese ! And presto pesto 'ma non troppo' !

[Joy]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Sun dried Tommasini Ravioli with cheese!

Sounds delicious!!!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[robert newman]

Joy, here in the UK pasta is the ultimate escape for a man if he has to cook something nice, really fast. That with chopped ham, pesto, chopped tomatoes, pepper etc. Usually macraroni, although spaghetti is fine or even ravioli. But Pesto Sauce (herbs in olive oil) transforms pasta. It's great. This with great music and perhaps a glass of fizzy white wine. Wow ! Speaking of which, must do this soon.