Update on Luchesi, Joseph Haydn and Mozart

[HaydnFan]

Hofrat, there is more to statistical analysis than just taking a simple average. If you have ever studied statistics you would know that you have not considered any influencing factors in your analysis such as environmental circumstances or Mozart's intellect. It would be nearly impossible to accurately measure the average speed at which Mozart wrote because we cannot observe him working first hand.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Well, Frank, statistics is a rather "cut and dry" thing. Dividing the period by the number of compositions gives you the average time per work. For his whole composing life, Mozart averaged 2 weeks per composition.


Hofrat

But what does this prove? Bach takes an extra 0.67 days than Mozart, so we conclude this is possible in Bach's case but not Mozart's? What about Telemann? You see this gets us absolutely nowhere as it is completely meaningless.

And anyway statisitics is far from cut and dried as we all know Disraeli's saying "There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics."

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'Man know thyself'

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Hofrat, there is more to statistical analysis than just taking a simple average. If you have ever studied statistics you would know that you have not considered any influencing factors in your analysis such as environmental circumstances or Mozart's intellect. It would be nearly impossible to accurately measure the average speed at which Mozart wrote because we cannot observe him working first hand.

Dear HaydnFan;

I have studied satatistics. Statistics is the collection and analysis of quantitative data. I jested that I had 2.65 children. Someone counted the number of children in a specific population and divided by the number of households in the same group. The result was 2.65 children per household. No one observed me having these children first hand. My intellect had nothing to do with it.

I also learned that the best way to attack statistics is to attack the quantitative data, which was the thrust of my argument. 626 listings in the Koechel catalog composed in 25 years is 14 days per composition. Now, if someone thinks that 14 days per work is high (like Mr. Newman), then that someone must dispute the numbers. There are only 2 numbers: 25 years and 626 works. The theory that Mozart faked his death is an interesting way to dispute the 25 years. Mr. Newman prefers to attack the 626 works.


Hofrat

[HaydnFan]

I have studied statistics too, Hofrat...

Firstly, counting your average number of children is not the same as deciphering the speed at which Mozart worked.

As I said, you cannot ignore external or influencing factors in this case that affect Mozart's compositional pace. (if we are trying to explain it). Your numbers for average compositions is correct, but you cannot simply interpret this as: this means he worked quickly [in relation to whom? what is the pace of other composers?] and that therefore, he could not have possibly completed this many [how do you arrive at this conclusion? Do you know Mozart personally and know he is not capable of such pace?]...during your analysis of the stats, it is not appropriate to draw the conclusion you have without considering other reference points.

[Hofrat]

Dear HaydnFan;

I just brought up the statistical point of view for a specific reason: first and primarily, the claim that Mozart could not write 3 symphonies in 6 weeks. My "cut and dry" stat showing that Mozart finished a work every 14 days demonstrates that he could.

Now, is a work every 14 days a fast pace? The only way to say is by comparing the average against other composers and analyse the environment factors. Average against average, Bach and Mozart are virtually equal. How do we factor in the environmental considerations? Mozart spent a lot of time travelling whereas Bach travelled less. Mozart was ill a lot whereas Bach was going blind at the end of his life. Mozart had only one child while Bach had to deal with 20 kids. I could go on and on. As I said before, statistics is a collection and analysis of quantitive data. It would be very difficult to quantify the environmental considerations.


Hofrat

[Peter]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear HaydnFan;

Mozart spent a lot of time travelling whereas Bach travelled less.

But when Bach travelled it was on foot - hundreds of miles, and not just on that one famous occasion!

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'Man know thyself'

[Frank H]

Dear Hofrat,

For many years I worked in various biological fields in which statistical analysis was very important. So I am well aware of what statistics can do – and equally important, what statistics can’t do.

In this present case, part of the problem seems to be whether or not we can accept the figure of 14 days per composition as possible or not. No amount of statistics, however sophisticated, will solve this problem.

Of course, if Mozart were credited with so many compositions that he would have had to compose say, several hundred in a week, I think there must be grounds for great suspicion – but even that wouldn’t prove that he didn’t compose some of those attributed to him.

But of course the figures are nowhere near that. If Berlioz can compose a quite complicated movement (lasting over 6 minutes at quite fast tempo) in a single night, I really don’t think that 14 days per composition is extraordinary – given that Berlioz was one of the less naturally gifted of the great composers (compared to such as Mozart and Mendelssohn that is - unlike them, Berlioz was not an infant prodigy).

Also, what a wide variety of items is covered by the term “composition”. If all 626 Kochel items were operas such as “Don Giovanni”, “Marriage of Figaro” etc., there might be real grounds for concern. But of course the vast majority of the Kochel catalogue compositions are far shorter and simpler works. Consider the well-known K618 Ave Verum Corpus. This comprises just over 3 minutes of slow tempo music. How long, or rather, how short, a time might Mozart have needed to produce that – masterpiece as it is? We know that he claimed to have composed the G major violin sonata K379 in one hour. That claim might have included some exaggeration, but it is clear that he was known to be a very fast worker.

Note incidentally that if these works were actually written by Luchesi, then Signor Luchesi must have been an even faster worker than Mozart was purported to be, since the works would not just have to be written, but then got to Mozart in such a way that no one, outside the supposed Jesuit conspiracy, got a hint of any of these vast number of transfers. To make sure that this would work (which it clearly did until the superhuman intelligences of Taboga, Newman, and their disciples “unmasked” them) would have required a formidable, and somewhat time-consuming “cover up” procedure for each work.

Another consideration. Many of Mozart’s lesser works, which make up the great majority of the Kochel 626, have rarely been recorded. Thus they will be largely unknown even to many Mozart lovers. I recently bought a CD which included one of these minor pieces, Church Sonata in C, K328. It lasts just over 5 minutes, and listening to it, I immediately picked up great similarities in themes to other Mozart compositions, both earlier and later. I am even surer now that the genius of Mozart was capable of virtually a production line of compositions, all with a strong family likeness, but each marked with its own individuality.

Finally, it is no surprise at all that many compositions have been attributed to Mozart which are only doubtfully his. Throughout history, great names have always attracted such a nebula of doubtful attributions. The Romantic revolution, which Mozart and Beethoven very much helped to get really going, made this less likely, as the importance of the "artist" as an individual became paramount. But even Beethoven has had works attributed to him, which are now known to be by others. Because the “Jena Symphony” is now known to be by Friedrich Witt, does that throw into question the attribution of all of Beethoven’s compositions?

As it is, there are works in the original Kochel catalogue which are now known to be not by Mozart. For instance, Symphony #37 K444, which is now accepted to be by Michael Haydn, with Mozart only responsible for the slow introduction. These misattributions have been discovered by genuine scholars doing patient research work, not by obsessive fanatics such as Giorgio Taboga, with his probably nationalistically motivated fantasies about mass German filching from Italians.

Frank


[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 02-28-2006).]

[This message has been edited by Frank H (edited 02-28-2006).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
But when Bach travelled it was on foot - hundreds of miles, and not just on that one famous occasion!

I'm surprised he had the energy. I think to produce all those kids Bach must have spent a lot of time 'in bed'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Rod:
I'm surprised he had the energy. I think to produce all those kids Bach must have spent a lot of time 'in bed'.

Bach was a dinamo .
He made children composing fugues walking around. That's a tough job!

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"Wer ein holdes weib errugen..."

[This message has been edited by Rutradelusasa (edited 03-01-2006).]

[atserriotserri]

I definitely think that in this case statistics don't mean much since there are many circumstances that make them not comparable: family life (children! we could make some jokes about "20 children" and "fugue"), health, degree evolution of instruments and music styles, means of transport, occupations attached to the position (teaching)...

Mr. Newman: With the greatest respect, don't misunderstand me. I'm very open-minded, and if music's good, don't care how the author was named but when ellaborating a theory is advisable some prudence to compile facts to rebate questions to balance the enthusiasm of who thinks has discovered something and wants to share it.

I mention this, because I'm a Spanish lawyer & Doctor in Law who loves music and I'll put you an example: To issue a claim asking for an injunction you just need to cast a shadow of reasonable doubt, to win the case and get the fees you need to provide enough evidence.
In my opinion, based upon what I've red, at the most you are half way to get the injunction. Good luck, honestly.

[robert newman]

Thank you atserriotserri for your posting. I agree completely with your view that I am at best around half way towards establishing my case. I compare this to trying to turn around an ocean liner and I just hope that I can finish this work.

Best wishes

Robert Newman