Haydn gives up

[Chaszz]

Haydn heard some works of Mozart, and declared they were so good that he himself would write no more in that form. Was this the string quartet, and were Mozart's works the 'Haydn' quartets? If not, what works were they?

[PDG]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Haydn heard some works of Mozart, and declared they were so good that he himself would write no more in that form. Was this the string quartet, and were Mozart's works the 'Haydn' quartets? If not, what works were they?

Not quite, Chaszz. Haydn was commissioned in 1799 by Prince Lobkowitz to compose a set of six quartets, but after finishing just two, he declared that his strength had left him. But he also knew that Beethoven's first quartets (Op. 18) were also being assembled for the prince, and maybe the old master didn't want to take on the young pretender whom he knew so well. Mozart's "Haydn" quartets were so-dedicated after Mozart had modelled his set of six, K. 168-173, on Haydn "from whom I learned to write quartets", and his Op. 20 set.



[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 11-06-2005).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by PDG:
But he also knew that Beethoven's first quartets (Op. 18) were also being assembled for the prince, and maybe the old master didn't want to take on the young pretender whom he knew so well.

I've never subscribed to the theory that Haydn was intimidated by Beethoven and that he curtailed his output accordingly - aside from it being contrary to Haydn's character, he had nothing to fear as his reputation and European fame were secure where as Beethoven had yet to prove himself to the world at large in the genres of symphony, opera, chamber and church music. I think Haydn's account of his reasons is entirely honest.

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'Man know thyself'

[sjwenger]

I'd heard something similar about Brahms - the reason it took so long for him to write his first symphony was that he didn't think he could compare with Beethoven's symphonies.

[Classy_The_Virgin]

Thats interesting. I like this board. These conversations are very thought provoking. But you know what? I would be intimidated too. Its like performing second after an opening act blew the stage up! You know? It would be very

hard to pull yourself back together. Who wants to hear Kenny G sax solo after you hear B's first four notes: Dun, Dun, Dun, DUNNNNNN??? I thought so........
I would be going back and probably re examine my material,too! BUT, it seems that these guys, with this level of competition from all the great names, at least could acnowledge one another and give credit where its dew.

[HaydnFan]

Peter is right, that Haydn would certainly not have been intimidated by Beethoven. However, there are accounts that Haydn was commissioned to write an opera (not sure for whom) but refused, sending back a reply that said that he would not because Mozart was much better at writing operas.

[Brithooven]

Yes, Haydn is known to have fairly bragged up his operas until he heard one of Mozart's, then to have felt his own to be inadequate. As for string quartets, this is the genre that I've read about being the first Mozart struggled with. He is known to have regularly written clean first copy manuscripts of his works. Not so with his initial foray into string quartets, with multiple corrections and revisions. Haydn was never intimidated by Mozart's quartets, but admired them greatly. Mozart was also known to have a healthy respect for "Papa Haydn's" quartets. One story has a noted composer talking to Mozart, saying disparagingly about a section of a Haydn quartet "I would never do that!" to which Mozart is said to have replied "nor would I, but that is Haydn", with respect. No faint praise from someone who could be as critical of others as Mozart. Unlike Beethoven, Mozart got along very well with Haydn also.

[Peter]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
I'd heard something similar about Brahms - the reason it took so long for him to write his first symphony was that he didn't think he could compare with Beethoven's symphonies.

Yes but it was very different composing after the 9 Beethoven symphonies than before! In the event I think Brahms acquitted himself very well and produced 4 glorious symphonies.

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'Man know thyself'

[Gurn Blanston]

Actually, it was piano concertos. One need only look at the chronology to see that is so. Even so, Haydn wrote his best string quartets after Mozart was already dead. It is also true that Haydn was offered a commission of an opera in Prague, but he turned it down and recommended Mozart instead, saying that he was the best opera composer then working. He was not wrong about that, either. The story of Haydn composing his Op 77 quartets in some sort of competition with Beethoven's Op 18 is apocryphal, I believe. In any case, Haydn completed 2.5 while Beethoven completed 6. But since he was working on the Creation and the Seasons at the time, one can only believe his heart wasn't in it. Not to say that Beethoven might not have been judges better anyway, but they were at far different points in their careers.

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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[JPAXTELL]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes but it was very different composing after the 9 Beethoven symphonies than before! In the event I think Brahms acquitted himself very well and produced 4 glorious symphonies.

I definitely agree! I also think part of the intimidation Brahms felt resulted from the reception his first piano concerto received at its premiere in Leipzig. Many of Brahms' chamber works are quite orchestral in their approach. The First Serenade began as a nonet, and look at what Schoenberg arranged for the first piano quartet.

Jim A.

[Beyond Within]

In the 'Beethoven's 9th' Book, the author gives the impression that at some point Haydn was the most popular composer in Europe.

But aside from that, every source I have read portrays Haydn as very honest, benign, and always ready to give compliments to other composers.

In general, I think Haydn was probably the kindest of all the composers I have read about -- despite the fact that he used to refer to his wife as "that infernal beast!"

--but that's just funny!

[sjwenger]

>In general, I think Haydn was probably the kindest of all the composers I have read about -- despite the fact that he used to refer to his wife as "that infernal beast!"

>--but that's just funny!

Funny? That infernal beast used his music manuscripts as curling papers for her hair.

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by sjwenger:
>In general, I think Haydn was probably the kindest of all the composers I have read about -- despite the fact that he used to refer to his wife as "that infernal beast!"

>--but that's just funny!

Funny? That infernal beast used his music manuscripts as curling papers for her hair.

She used them to kindle the oven!!


Hofrat

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:

But aside from that, every source I have read portrays Haydn as very honest, benign, and always ready to give compliments to other composers.

I will have to differ on that point. I know for a fact that Haydn tried to publish trios by Pleyel as his own. Also, when requested by London publishers for new material, Haydn submitted stuff that he had published several years before in Paris.


Hofrat

[HaydnFan]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
I will have to differ on that point. I know for a fact that Haydn tried to publish trios by Pleyel as his own. Also, when requested by London publishers for new material, Haydn submitted stuff that he had published several years before in Paris.


Hofrat

Yes, but many other composers did the same (submitting previously-published or old works of their own), especially when they were too busy to compose anything new (which Haydn definitely was).

As for the publishing of Pleyel's works, I've never heard of that before. You said, you know for a fact; I would like to see proof. (I am not saying it's not true, just that I've never read that before). Do you have a reference for this that I can check out?