Chopin Piano Concertos

[Haffner]

Originally posted by Sorrano:

My appologies for mixing Rimsky-Korsakov with Ravel on the Pictures. I think that Stowkowski also did an orchestral version of the same work which I like better than Ravel's. But that's my own taste. I still think that the piano communicates the work better than the orchestral version. The orchestral version adds via color and effect something that the piano cannot convey and this does not do Mussourgsky any justice with his work and his ideas. While I do enjoy Ravel's orchestration and Stowkowski's I will go to the piano version when I want to know what Mussourgsky wanted to express, not what Ravel wanted.

Perhaps the recording I have simply featured a bad pianist but I will take another listen, perhaps I judged too hastily. Good point though about wanting to see what Mussurgsky intended to express rather than Ravel, that's like seeking Chopin through that dredful orchestral arrangement turned into a ballet called "Les Something or other"; I refuse to even take the time to try to recall that farce of a composition's name.

[spaceray]

Originally posted by Haffner:
What? The Ravel Orchestration is far more effective in terms of conveying the colour Mussorgksy tried to convey through the piano, in my opinion anyways. I was about to mention that work, it is a good example of an orchestral piano composition. Espically the last piece, the Gates of Kiev, as orchestral as any work written for orchestra!

As for the other points made since I last posted, the one about using the piano while composing upsets me. I have heard that Berlioz quote before and I have read that Beethoven said "A good composer does not need the piano" and he is right. But Berlioz, I am sure, meant when writting for orchestra and of course one should never use the piano in such a situation. But, I stick by my original statement, no matter how good an ear you have, nothing can compare to actual experimentation on the piano as Chopin and Debussy have shown us.

Well, I do not think Beethoven's piano writting is in any way an advancement from Mozart's because of this reason; if Chopin and Liszt were the next generation of important piano composers (as indeed they were), both of their styles are more closely related to the piano style of Mozart with his elaborate right hand and simple accompaniment. Just take a look at the 3rd movement of his Sonata in F, K. 332, nothing could serve more perfectly as an example of what would become the style of the romantics. As for octaves and such that Beethoven used, I will refer you once again to the Fantasy in C- and the C- Piano Concerto, two works Beethoven admired greatly. Everything Beethoven did on the piano is contained within them, in my opinion, more is contained within them.

Yes, the topic certianly has strayed from it's origin and perhaps for that I am to blame, but I was greatly offended that anyone could even compare Chopin's orchestration to Beethoven's orchestration without making it a fair comparision. Chopin wrote both concertos before the age of 22 and as I have said, he was a pianistic composer as Beethoven was an orchestral composer. Beethoven's piano writting IS dry by comparison (BY COMPARISON) and I cannot believe anyone is even arguing this because to me it seems to be such a blatently obvious fact.

Last week I attended a concert at the Toronto Symphony orchestra (my second so far this season, the first was Beethoven's 7th) featuring the Chopin concerto No. 2 with Emmanual Ax at the piano. It was absolutely horendous and I was offended after he played the first note. Technically speaking he was a wonderful pianist but he did not understand the music. I do not know why it is that the "greater" the pianist the worse they play Chopin but that seems to be the case. They do not adhere to the tempos, they use rubato (Chopin did not, he practiced with a metronome and varied only slightly the right hand, keeping the left hand always constant) and they play far to loudly. Sometimes I wonder deeply why such offenses are allowed to be committed against such great art; to me it is as offensive as murder.

Haf,
Ah here is the explanation,it was Ax's performance you didn't care for.I see.
space

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Haffner:
Perhaps the recording I have simply featured a bad pianist but I will take another listen, perhaps I judged too hastily. Good point though about wanting to see what Mussurgsky intended to express rather than Ravel, that's like seeking Chopin through that dredful orchestral arrangement turned into a ballet called "Les Something or other"; I refuse to even take the time to try to recall that farce of a composition's name.

And, if memory serves correctly, Ravel ommitted a measure on one of the numbers and I believe ommitted one of the Promenade reprisals. Stokowski ommitted more than that, but the orchestration is quite nice of what he did. But it reflects his own view and interpretation of the work.

[imnewtothis]

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
That's true, the topic drifted away, but I think it drifted since there is no real argument in the fact that the orchestration is quite weak. As an example, the chopin website (http://www.chopin.pl), that provides rich information, doesn't even mention the concertos.

Hi....im only in 6th grade, and i'm not into Beethoven or whatever. I just want to get my homework done and get out of here. i was wondering if any of yah'll know how many piano concertos beethoven composed.

[Raro]

Beethoven's concerted works with solo piano:

- 5 mature numbered and published concertos.

- 1 adaptation of the violin concerto for piano & orchestra.

- 1 incomplete youth ("0th") concerto.

- 1 incomplete 6th concerto.

- 1 rondo for piano & orchestra (original finale of concerto no. 2?).

- 1 fantasy for piano, choir & orchestra.

- 2 concertanti for piano, violin, cello & orchestra (one of which left unfinished).

- 1 concertante movement for piano, flute, bassoon & orchestra.

And what about that incomplete (?) movement for piano & orchestra that was recently discovered and reconstructed? Does anyone here know anything about that?

[leonardooliveira]

Testing

[Droell]

Originally posted by Beyond Within:
The topic has drifted a little bit from the original complaint: Chopins weak orcheastration...

Put piano writing in a context. If you're young & new in town & have some talent at the keys (oh, okay, LOTS of talent), well-written piano works can establish your reputation fairly quickly.

If you have some friends & a penchant for ensemble playing, chamber works. (Schubert comes to mind.)

If at some point you happen to live in a theatre with its very own orchestra, or if some of your associates are titled nobility with private orchestras, opportunities to write for larger forces will appear.

Over time, your output will shift from solo works, to chamber works, to orchestral works until you establish your own unique habits.

Beethoven had the opportunity to do all this. Chopin, as I understand him, did not. A good many 19th century composers wrote a great deal of piano music for this reason (Grieg comes to mind). Chopin's orchestration was not very good, but neither was the orchestration in early compositions of George Gershwin (An American in Paris comes to mind).

Had Chopin the opportunity, I am certain he would have done much better with orchestra. If you must make a living with your pen, there is no point writing for forces you do not have at your disposal, ie, compositions unlikely to be played. Chopin wrote concerti for the same reason as Paganini: so he could make money touring. All the more reason, I think, for societies to nurture the great, rather than let them flail about trying to make a meager living.

Didn't Beethoven once declare the piano to be a most unsatisfactory instrument? Doesn't sound to me as if he was very worried about what the piano thought of his ideas.

[This message has been edited by Droell (edited 10-12-2005).]

[Pianoprodigy]

Look guys, the orchestral parts sound so great to me. Of course playing these Concertos have made give and appreciation to the great genius of Chopin. Listen and play these concertos. Listen intently and you will find a beauty in his orchestral parts of the Concertos.

[jdidlock]

If you go to the Naxos site you can listen to the BIS recording mentioned in this thread. You have to open an account. Basically this is free but limits you to 25% of any given track. For $US20 fee you can listen to whole tracks for a year

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The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves and wiser people so full of doubts. Bertrand Russell

[Raro]

Originally posted by Pianoprodigy:
Look guys, the orchestral parts sound so great to me. Of course playing these Concertos have made give and appreciation to the great genius of Chopin. Listen and play these concertos. Listen intently and you will find a beauty in his orchestral parts of the Concertos.

Of course you will find beauty (hey, it's Chopin we're talking about, after all!), but it'll be solely in the melodies, and not in the unidiomatic scoring. The orchestral parts of one of his shorter concerted pieces for piano & orchestra, the "Grande polonaise brillante précédé d'un Andante spianato" (op.22?), are so incredibly uninventive and weak, that it's the additional (but not original) version for solo piano that is most often performed. If he did show genius in writing for orchestra, then he did so very unconspiciously. Although, it must be said, the funny "col legno" playing for strings was his invention.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Raro:
Although, it must be said, the funny "col legno" playing for strings was his invention.

Haydn had used this in his symphony no.67 though I'd be surprised if Chopin knew this work!

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'Man know thyself'

[Raro]

Haydn, the eternal comedian! I'm going to listen to it right away!

[Geratlas]

Dear Raro, a comprehensive list you compiled above of LvB's concertant works with piano. Very good I think. - Are you sure it is complete?

Originally posted by Raro:
... And what about that incomplete (?) movement for piano & orchestra that was recently discovered and reconstructed? Does anyone here know anything about that?

A question to my liking! Hmm. Here is my vague notion of it. ---> (Obviously) LvB atleast attempted to write one new concerto in or about the year 1788. A single score sheet, next to blank, taken to be a fragment of a presumable concerto for clavier in B flat, showing motives quite resemblant to some of the Vienna B flat concerto (known as No.2, op.19) strongly suggest this. In the recent event the above presented middle movement of (yet) a clavier concerto seems to date from about the same year. The work (or what is left of it) is declared to have been written in the year 1789 (I imagine this date to be an approximate one). As I see it, the source is bound to lie in a preliminary drafted *Adagio* in D major, bearing the annotation *---to a concerto in A [major]* in LvB's hand. This draft then, said to be written sometime in Bonn, and has been dated to 1792, is perhaps years older. I suspect there were, if not quite many, quite significant works composed by LvB in Bonn, now lost, and completely unknown to us today. / (Here follows an extract from BBC News)

"Part of a previously unknown piano concerto by Beethoven will be performed for the first time in Rotterdam [on 1 February 2005]. The 1789 adagio was found as a rough outline in the British Museum then formed into an eight-minute piece. Dutch pianist Ronald Brautigam will play the piece in a Rotterdam Chamber Orchestra concert on Tuesday. "As far as we know, Beethoven did write a whole concert that included this adagio and disappeared," [ ] said orchestra conductor Conrad van Alphen. Outline rebuilt "We have not found any trace that is was ever played before." The piece was discovered as a rough outline of themes but Dutch musicologist Cees Nieuwenhuizen formed it into an eight-minute adagio. "It is clearly a piece from his youth but not of a first-timer," said Mr Van Alphen. "In 1789 Beethoven had already started work on his second piano concerto. "The atmosphere of this piece is very close to that of the third piano concerto." The piece will be played alongside works by Schubert [ ], Haydn [ ] and Mozart [ ] at Rotterdam's De Doelen concert hall."

You are welcome to reply, of course / your friend Geratlas :::