Brahms vs. Wagner

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Not a big fan of Handel, sorry...give me Bach or Telemann any day...there is some good Handel stuff but mostly, I don't like him because he is overrated (not because his music isn't good).

Whoa...is this going to bring a big response from Rod!...if not, I am the seventh sister of the Queen of Sheba.

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Whoa...is this going to bring a big response from Rod!...if not, I am the seventh sister of the Queen of Sheba.

and I was playing at the arrival of your sister . *puts his opera spetacles on*




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"Wer ein holdes weib errungen..."

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by HaydnFan:
Not a big fan of Handel, sorry...give me Bach or Telemann any day...there is some good Handel stuff but mostly, I don't like him because he is overrated (not because his music isn't good).

Given Handel's usual standing amongst scholars and music lovers alike, I would suggest he is the most underrated of composers. On Olympus, though, everyone knows who is King:

"HE IS THE MASTER OF US ALL!" - FJ Haydn

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[This message has been edited by untamed_personality (edited 10-09-2005).]

[Raro]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
"HE IS THE MASTER OF US ALL!" - FJ Haydn

Besides; didn't Beethoven, despite his unconditional love for the music of Bach and Mozart, place Händel first throughout his life?

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Given Handel's usual standing amongst scholars and music lovers alike, I would suggest he is the most underrated of composers. On Olympus, though, everyone knows who is King:

"HE IS THE MASTER OF US ALL!" - FJ Haydn

I agree, the music academics and professionals I know do not rate Handel highly at all yet barely know any of his music other than the usual suspects. How anyone can prefer Telemann to Handel is completely beyond me. Though you are quoting a missquote from myself (the reference to Olympus..), it is 'in a Monarchy everyone knows who is King'. However my own version is better if anything!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Geratlas]

Yes, Raro (hi by the way), he indeed did. And he had good reasons to do it! - I am not prepared to take sides in the Brahms/Wagner issue. There's simply no need. - Beethoven would prefer Brahms' art prior to Wagner's, no doubt. / G.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Raro:
Besides; didn't Beethoven, despite his unconditional love for the music of Bach and Mozart, place Händel first throughout his life?

Well the pro-Handelian anecdoes that have survived come largely from the late period, I suspect in his youth his idol would have been Mozart.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[untamed_personality]

Originally posted by Rod:
I agree, the music academics and professionals I know do not rate Handel highly at all yet barely know any of his music other than the usual suspects. How anyone can prefer Telemann to Handel is completely beyond me. Though you are quoting a missquote from myself (the reference to Olympus..), it is 'in a Monarchy everyone knows who is King'. However my own version is better if anything!

Yes, it does seem to have more 'zing'! Either way our Ludwig certainly had a way with words, even if he didn't think so himself!

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Seizing fate by the throat...

[Rod]

Originally posted by untamed_personality:
Yes, it does seem to have more 'zing'! Either way our Ludwig certainly had a way with words, even if he didn't think so himself!

Actually I think I have misquoted again (from Thayer). It is 'in a Monarchy everyone knows who is the leader.'

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Raro:
Besides; didn't Beethoven, despite his unconditional love for the music of Bach and Mozart, place Händel first throughout his life?

Not until his later years, his number one previously was Mozart and as you say he never lost this admiration for the great Salzburger!

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'Man know thyself'

[Steppenwolf]

Nietsche once said, "A great man should be proud of his enemies". That Wagner and Brahms were considered rivals to each other is a compliment to both - it meant that they represented the twin pillars of what was best in mid to late 19th century music.

[Raro]

Of course the conflict goes quite deep, but I think we can say at least the following: both camps have their roots in music as it had been formed (almost solely) by Beethoven during the first part of the 19th Century, later they split up in the so-called "conservatives" and "progressives". Even later, though, with the next generation of composers such as Tchaikovsky, Dvorák, Grieg and still later with Strauss and Rachmaninov, we see both sides come together again and the 2 camps re-integrated into one "Late-Romantic" camp (which stands against impressionism, expressionism, atonality, jazz, light music, and all other horrors ( ) of 20th century music). Both Wagner and Brahms built on the aspects of Beethoven's music they deemed worth preserving, and later generations on their turn chose the best (usually...) from both composers. Am I still followable? Am I even right...?