Brahms - a few interesting facts

[Chaszz]

Tchaikovsky was notoriously self-deprecating and often had a love/hate relationship with his own music. He wrote to Nadezhda Von Meck about the 5th symphony "I have become convinced that this symphony is unsuccessful. There is something repulsive about it, a certain excess of gaudiness and insincerity, artificiality" - I think Brahms felt the finale to be rather bombastic. Tchaikovsky went on to say that the public instinctively recognised these faults, however he has certainly been proved wrong there!

Brahms was also very critical of his own music so he and Tc. were alike in this respect. Brahms often expressed the opinion that the great days of music as exemplified by Bach and Beethoven were long past, and all composers of his day could do was their able best, which was not anywhere near as good as the masters'. He destroyed many pages of manuscript and reworked some compositions for years before publishing them. I personally think that the feelings of wistfulness, nostalgia and loss which his music often expresses are partly due to this sense of a golden age gone irretrievably into the past.

Re Tc. and the 5th symphony finale, I think an artist who wears his heart on his sleeve and pours out emotion, including self-pity, the way he did, inevitably has sometimes got to be wondering whether the elaborate feelings he is expressing are completely sincere or partly unfelt and a little forced.

[Peter]

Not trying to intervene. Although, this is a great thread. We need a thread like this for Beethoven? Where the forum members post factual accounts, remarks, letters, etc., or, "interesting facts" about him.

Perhaps, it could be long like the, what are you listening to, thread? Full of interesting facts about Beethoven.

Well I'm sure they have come up over the years on the forum and I have a page dedicated to such anecdotes on the main site. However I agree it would be nice to have a special thread for this so I'll start one!

[Peter]

What reservations may they have had? To me this Finale is one of the greatest
of all symphonic literature!!!

Gerd

Tchaikovsky was notoriously self-deprecating and often had a love/hate relationship with his own music. He wrote to Nadezhda Von Meck about the 5th symphony "I have become convinced that this symphony is unsuccessful. There is something repulsive about it, a certain excess of gaudiness and insincerity, artificiality" - I think Brahms felt the finale to be rather bombastic. Tchaikovsky went on to say that the public instinctively recognised these faults, however he has certainly been proved wrong there!

[gprengel]

Brahms actually praised the 5th symphony but had reservations (which Tchaikovsky shared) about the finale.

What reservations may they have had? To me this Finale is one of the greatest
of all symphonic literature!!!

Gerd

[Hofrat]

I posted in another thread about a practical joke that Brahms played on a well known musical scholar. I repeat it for those who missed it:

Brahms was a notorious prankster. Here is a prank he played on Gustav Nottebolm, the music scholar who researched Beethoven's sketchbooks. Brahms got a piece of very old music paper and jotted down on it, using Beethoven's handwriting, a popular tune from the 1880's. He gave the paper to a street vender who sold hot sausages. Later in the evening, Brahms and Nottebolm were walking and Brahm offered to buy Nottebolm a hot sausage from the vendor. The vendor wraps the sausage in the "Beethoven MS" and hands it to Nottebolm. Brahms split a gut watching Nottebolm try to extradict the sausage from the "MS."

[Preston]

Not trying to intervene. Although, this is a great thread. We need a thread like this for Beethoven? Where the forum members post factual accounts, remarks, letters, etc., or, "interesting facts" about him.

Perhaps, it could be long like the, what are you listening to, thread? Full of interesting facts about Beethoven.

[Chaszz]

Brahms wrote to Wagner asking for a score of Tristan, which he recognized as a work of revolutionary harmony. Wagner had none on hand, so send instead a score of Das Rheingold, the first of the Ring operas. After some time, Wagner had to write and ask for it back. Brahms had a large collection of scores and added the Rheingold to it without asking whether it was a loan or a gift.

Sometime later, in 1876 Brahms wanted to attend the premiere of Bayreuth and the Ring. However he was afraid of beeing booed by Wagner's fans. In the end he stayed home.

Still later, Wagner heard a Brahms chamber work and declared, "Gentlemen, you see what can still be done with the old forms by someone who understands them." This was a reference to his belief that the finale of Beethoven's 9th had put an end to purely instrumental music and that henceforth only music and words together would constitute this art form. However, in his last year he planned six purely instrumental symphonies, never written, evidently relaxing his opinion about wordless instrumental music being passe. One wonders whether Brahms' works had helped change his mind.

[Peter]

Now I might be in error, but I recall that Brahms sat in on a dress rehearsal of Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony. Brahms slept through the rehearsal which of course insulted Tchaikovsky. If that story is true, it would be a good reason why Tchaikovsky did not like Brahms' music.

Again, I do not know if this is true or if it is some old tale, so please, dear forum members, save your slings and arrows.

My understanding of Brahms and Tchaikovsky is that they liked each other and got on and the musical dislike was more on Tchaikovsky's part which caused embarrassment in their brief encounters. Tchaikovsky's hostility towards Brahms's music pre-dates that 5th symphony anecdote - Brahms actually praised the 5th symphony but had reservations (which Tchaikovsky shared) about the finale.

[Hofrat]

Now I might be in error, but I recall that Brahms sat in on a dress rehearsal of Tchaikovsky's 5th symphony. Brahms slept through the rehearsal which of course insulted Tchaikovsky. If that story is true, it would be a good reason why Tchaikovsky did not like Brahms' music.

Again, I do not know if this is true or if it is some old tale, so please, dear forum members, save your slings and arrows.

[Chaszz]

Brahms and Tchaikowsky could not stand each other. Tchaikowsky thought Brahms' music nearly worthless, extremely overrated (I don't know if Brahms liked Tchaikowsky's music or not). There was a famous dinner party at the home of a mutual friend at which both were present, and the tension was reportedly very thick, although polite manners were maintained.

Benjamin Britten also despised Brahms' music. It is odd that his work, so widely loved, brought out such violent antipathy in a few composers.

The story about his playing in dives as a child has lately been called false in a few quarters, and I can't now venture an opinion as to whether it's true or not.

[Peter]

there is another anecdote of Brahms and Bruch.

Having a drink in Brahms' most favoured pub, the Rote Igl, a drunk was singing loudly outside the entrance.
Brahms to Bruch: Is it your new oratorio I hear being sung now?

Ouch!! Brahms was of course the butt of much humour and many insults himself, but he could give as good as he got!

[Roehre]

Chazz, There are a lot of facts about Brahms that could be brought to light and one such 'fact' I found to be true of Brahms personality is the following. It seems that Max Bruch played his violin concert No.1 through for Brahms on the piano and at the end of the performance Brahms, not known for his tactfulness, went to the piano and took a sheet of the score, rubbing it between his fingers and thumb remarked to Bruch "Where do you buy your music paper? First rate!" The concerto has moved and impressed other listeners more deeply. So.... Brahms lacked the ability to shower praise, to any large extent, on this work of a friend.

there is another anecdote of Brahms and Bruch.

Having a drink in Brahms' most favoured pub, the Rote Igl, a drunk was singing loudly outside the entrance.
Brahms to Bruch: Is it your new oratorio I hear being sung now?

[Opus131]

Hear Brahms playing ? o_O

http://ccrma.stanford.edu/groups/edi...ms/brahms.html

[King Stephen]

Chazz, There are a lot of facts about Brahms that could be brought to light and one such 'fact' I found to be true of Brahms personality is the following. It seems that Max Bruch played his violin concert No.1 through for Brahms on the piano and at the end of the performance Brahms, not known for his tactfulness, went to the piano and took a sheet of the score, rubbing it between his fingers and thumb remarked to Bruch "Where do you buy your music paper? First rate!" The concerto has moved and impressed other listeners more deeply. So.... Brahms lacked the ability to shower praise, to any large extent, on this work of a friend.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by King Stephen:
I read that Brahms was extremely generous to students of music, and he certainly vaulted Dvorak into the limelight. His love and affection for the Schumann children shows a kinder, gentler Johannes. His loneliness,I believe,led to his caustic manners from time to time.

I should have included something to this effect, and also mentioned his staunch anti-anti-semitism which took a certain amount of courage in his time. Also he was a generous anonymous donor to many needy people after he became wealthy from composing and from investments. And also I could have said something about his wonderful music. In addition to listening repeatedly to his symphonies for the first time in many years recently, I also heard on CD his Alto Rhapsody sung by Marian Anderson. This is a sublime experience, if anyone has not heard it.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 07-08-2005).]