Gustav Mahler

[Haffner]

Originally posted by lvbfanatic:


There are several intersting points made by Haffmner and equally interesting questions asked...

The advent of the MP3 technologies applied to CD burning has changed the way in which we can enjoy the massive amounts of music that have been recorded. It's quite a blast to cram up to 8.5 hours of musical favourites on a single disc thanks to the compression technology...

But what do you put on it?

I decided on those bits of music which could be heard repeatedly wothout cloying, paling, or losing flavour. Mahler's major works just couldn't make it. Some of them sound really great (like the 1st and the 2nd and the 5th... but not in frequently repeated stretches... they cloy... after a while Mahler comes out as a composer with some good ideas... but not really great music)... Chopin never makes the great and perhaps that is why Haffner was so disappointed with the live performance.

A lot of LVB,s output stands very well the test of frequent repetitions... and in fact that is the best way of really wrapping your soul around his music... and of course there's also that last movement of Mozart's 41st symphony... and so on...

But getting back to the live vs recorded performance... the recorded performance is really the best way of getting to know anything about the music... in live perfs it might sound like *hey I really like that!* but in recorded form ... repeated often... the reality of the musical fit and yourself really comes through.

Well, first of all, quite interesting that you can write off two of the greatest composers in the history of music. Chopin is my favourite composer and to me, he is the greatest who has ever lived. He was as great an innovator as any but I shall restrain myself from combating your statement about his music "never making the great". I disliked the performance due to the pianist, not the composer, but even though I strongly disagree with your points concerning Chopin and Mahler, I suppose I can respect them.

I wonder though, what makes music re-listenable in your opinion? Only when I enjoy solely melodic material do I find the music wears out very quickly. I think the composer who wears most on me is Rossini; ah, dreadful! As Berlioz said, he wrote music to please the ear which has nothing to do with emotional expression. I can understand tiring of music such as this, but genuine, personal music like Chopin's and Mahler's, I don't understand why this wears on you.

Returning to the topic of recorded music, I was just thinking that aside from it being a fickle representation of real sound, it poses a great problem to the way we view live performance. Recordings can easily be made perfect through editing and splicing separate takes and this in turn forces the audience to place great pressure on performers. Recordings have made us expect perfect performances and in a way I think this has cheapened the entire live experience. Don't get me wrong, recordings have made life a lot more convenient but I think they have done so in a negative way.

[urtextmeister]

I used to listen to Mahler's sixth in the car and I would keep turing the volume up higher and higher to hear that little whispers...
Wham! There is that huge blast that always caught me by surprise. I had to stop listening to that in the car for the safety of myself and other drivers.
Now I try to listen to either pop music or harpsichord music while driving. They both maintain about the same decibel level.

lvbfanatic,

I agree that the value of recordings should not be discounted. I have gotten great enjoyment out of LPs, CDs and tapes during my lifetime. Some of my best experiences have been with scratchy, low fidelity audio. I'm not sure how to explain that, but I think we can appreciate recordings more when we don't consider them only a pale imitation of real life. It is not unlike looking at a faded black and white photograph and only thinking how unlike real life it is. There is a value to the photograph itself, not only that moment it is trying to capture, true? This is getting a bit philosophical.

Your facile analysis of composers bothers me a little. Mahler and Chopin are both masterful composers who each represent a world of culture, sensibility and tradition. It seems to me they giving them 10 or 20 turns on the CD player and then kicking them out is a little harsh.

[JA Gardiner]

There's also an issue with Mahler of the huge dynamic range of his music. I too heard the 1st live - at a lunchtime concert at the Barbican with the LSO conducted by Maestro Abbado and was blown away - in tears for most of the 3rd and 4th movements and totally unable to work for the rest of the afternoon. With a recording of this piece however good the performance - Haitink/Bernstein/Abbado - I have difficulty getting the effect - especially of those opening PPP's - because if i have the volume loud enough to hear those properly ( I am only very slightly hearing impaired) the triple fortes are life-endangering and not conducive to neighbour relations: but if I listen at a comfortable level for the loud bits the PPP's disappear altogether. Recordings that try to compensate for this end up losing the contrast and sounding very squashed ( for want of a better word) and of course any recording of Mahler will lose the sheer drama that's been discussed above.

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Beethoven the Man!

[Sorrano]

[quote]Originally posted by lvbfanatic:
[b]

Originally posted by Haffner:
Last week, at my second subscription concert to the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, I had the misfortune of hearing Emmanual Ax perform Chopin's Second Piano Concerto, but the supreme pleasure of hearing ... the First Symphony of Gustav Mahler.

So I am posting this topic for several reasons; one is to find out your opinions on the idea that some muusic cannot be fully enjoyed on CD, another is to see what some of you think of Mahler as a composer...

There are several intersting points made by Haffmner and equally interesting questions asked...

The advent of the MP3 technologies applied to CD burning has changed the way in which we can enjoy the massive amounts of music that have been recorded. It's quite a blast to cram up to 8.5 hours of musical favourites on a single disc thanks to the compression technology...

But what do you put on it?

I decided on those bits of music which could be heard repeatedly wothout cloying, paling, or losing flavour. Mahler's major works just couldn't make it. Some of them sound really great (like the 1st and the 2nd and the 5th... but not in frequently repeated stretches... they cloy... after a while Mahler comes out as a composer with some good ideas... but not really great music)... Chopin never makes the great and perhaps that is why Haffner was so disappointed with the live performance.

A lot of LVB,s output stands very well the test of frequent repetitions... and in fact that is the best way of really wrapping your soul around his music... and of course there's also that last movement of Mozart's 41st symphony... and so on...

But getting back to the live vs recorded performance... the recorded performance is really the best way of getting to know anything about the music... in live perfs it might sound like *hey I really like that!* but in recorded form ... repeated often... the reality of the musical fit and yourself really comes through.

I think, too, that a recorded work in a studio can tend to be a more automatic synthesis of the work. Sometimes one can get a good idea of the energy behind a performance with a recorded performance, but the sound and acoustics will not be the same as live.

[lvbfanatic]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Haffner:
[B]Last week, at my second subscription concert to the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, I had the misfortune of hearing Emmanual Ax perform Chopin's Second Piano Concerto, but the supreme pleasure of hearing ... the First Symphony of Gustav Mahler.

So I am posting this topic for several reasons; one is to find out your opinions on the idea that some muusic cannot be fully enjoyed on CD, another is to see what some of you think of Mahler as a composer...

There are several intersting points made by Haffmner and equally interesting questions asked...

The advent of the MP3 technologies applied to CD burning has changed the way in which we can enjoy the massive amounts of music that have been recorded. It's quite a blast to cram up to 8.5 hours of musical favourites on a single disc thanks to the compression technology...

But what do you put on it?

I decided on those bits of music which could be heard repeatedly wothout cloying, paling, or losing flavour. Mahler's major works just couldn't make it. Some of them sound really great (like the 1st and the 2nd and the 5th... but not in frequently repeated stretches... they cloy... after a while Mahler comes out as a composer with some good ideas... but not really great music)... Chopin never makes the great and perhaps that is why Haffner was so disappointed with the live performance.

A lot of LVB,s output stands very well the test of frequent repetitions... and in fact that is the best way of really wrapping your soul around his music... and of course there's also that last movement of Mozart's 41st symphony... and so on...

But getting back to the live vs recorded performance... the recorded performance is really the best way of getting to know anything about the music... in live perfs it might sound like *hey I really like that!* but in recorded form ... repeated often... the reality of the musical fit and yourself really comes through.



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A Calm Sea and A Prosperous Voyage

[urtextmeister]

I agree with that.
Interesting about the ear hairs lying flat.

I love the awareness that music is coming from all over when I am in a live performance situtation. It is bouncing off the walls and filling the space.

Could we ever program all of the subtleties of a great live performance into a digital experience? Some might say yes, but then the question is why?

I also need to flip around and say how grateful I am to digital technology, however. Both as a composer and a music listener, I rely on it heavily.

[Vipercat]

Because a live performance involves "actual sound" and not digital sound, it is so much more exciting, and that is why you can feel the energy (provided the interpretation and performance is good of course!) Natural sound is rich in overtones and research has actually shown that listening to electronic music makes the small hairs inside the human ear lie down flat, in other words you literally get tired of listening to it!!

That is the same reason why a digital organ can never measure up to a real pipe organ, and why when for instance singing in church and being accompanied by a digital instrument you feel slightly off-tone when singing. The human voice, being a natural instrument, blends in perfectly with sound produced by a real instrument and sounds in harmony. Not so with digital, no matter HOW closely the sound is engineered! It's all physics, really!

[Chris]

It's kind of like dating, I suppose.

That's an interesting comparison!

[urtextmeister]

I do some chamber music and a lot of accompanying. There is a lot pleasure to be gained from group music making. Small groups can be wonderful. I still would like to be somewhere in the string section sawing away during a Beethoven symphony, however.

I think there is sometimes a social barrier for pianists. We tend to isolate ourselves. Sometimes if you go up to an instrumentalist and say, "Hey. Would you like to read some sonatas?", they would be delighted.

It's kind of like dating, I suppose.

[Haffner]

Originally posted by Peter:
Mahler is a wonderful composer in my estimation, but admittedly difficult on account of the length of concentration needed.

Yes, his music is quite serious and very tortured. Perhaps it is that anguish which I am drawn to but I agree with you about the level of concentration required. I played his unfinished Tenth symphony for a friend and her response was "This is too serious for me". His music in that respect is like Wagner's. I don't know what the general consensus is about him here but I greatly admire his music. I have tried to watch Der Ring des Nibelungen with several friends and they usually don't last through the first act of Das Rheingold.

Originally posted by atserriotserri:
I think that part of the distance between attending at a concert and listening a cd is because the "ritual" of listening to music has disappeared. It's as simple as picking the cd, put it in the player and push play, this means one walks, practices sport, works, recapitulates his agenda, thinks about what to do tomorrow, cooks, makes the clean-up of the house... while listening to music. Few times one can behave like he is at a concert hall, that is, not doing anything but listen and enjoy music.

Very good point. I am guilty of doing these things you mention, but I try to set aside some time each day to just listen. And now with these weekly symphony concerts and Canadian Opera Company in the Winter, I am looking forward to enjoying some great music and giving it my undivided attention.

It's going to seem like I am a Chopin nut but he was complaining of this same thing on his second trip to England. He complained that the English had corrupt taste and they had music everywhere, in restaurants, on street corners and at garden parties. Of course it was not just England, this was in practice during Mozart's day, but I still think it humorous that we are talking about the art of listening to music being lost when over a hundred years ago they were complaining of the same thing!

Originally posted by urtextmeister:
First of all, a little more explanation is needed regarding Emmanuel Ax and Chopin.

I can remember about 20 some years ago, when my teacher pulled out a recording of Chopin and had me listen to it. He and Ax had both gone to Juillard at the same time and he was very excited about this young guy's Chopin. Now the young guy is an old guy and he no longer needs to prove himself. He hangs with Yo-Yo, for crying out loud.

Of course, everybody has a bad night occasionally.

It wasn't just a bad night, technically he was perfect but really, and it is more of a curse than anything, I don't think I've ever heard a Chopin performance that I have enjoyed. Except Ashkenazy, I think he is very faithful to Chopin's ideals.

Originally posted by urtextmeister:

Sometimes I wish I played an orchestra instrument.

Ahh, me too! The pianist is such an isolated individual and in a way the outcast of all musicians. Not quite stringed instruments, not quite percussion, the keyboard family is best suited for solo performance it seems. I'd really like to get involved in chamber music though since other than playing some Brahms Hungarian dances with my old piano teacher, all I have ever done is play alone.

[Joy]

I have to agree there's nothing like attending a live performance. The energy you get from the stage performers is electric. It's exciting to hear the music live and watch the orchestra and conductor interchange
with each other. The visual part is as exciting as the audible part. I get so much more from it than listening to CD's although I'm glad we can just pop in a CD anytime we want as going to a live performance is not an everyday occurrence!

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'Truth and beauty joined'

[urtextmeister]

First of all, a little more explanation is needed regarding Emmanuel Ax and Chopin.

I can remember about 20 some years ago, when my teacher pulled out a recording of Chopin and had me listen to it. He and Ax had both gone to Juillard at the same time and he was very excited about this young guy's Chopin. Now the young guy is an old guy and he no longer needs to prove himself. He hangs with Yo-Yo, for crying out loud.

Of course, everybody has a bad night occasionally.

My last experience with the Mahler 1st was not good. I think it is one of those pieces where a bad performance can really bring out the flaws in the piece. Pacing and timing and seeing the big picture is so important.

Still, I enjoyed the live experience. There is something to be said for, as someone said, seeing the conductor pick up the baton, seeing the brass section all pick up the horns and you know something big is about to happen. A conductor friend of mind says, "modern audiences hear with their eyes."

And yes, acoustically, live can't be beat. Being a part of the action is probably best of all. As a pianist, I haven't spent a lot of time with orchestras. I remember recently waiting to go on to do a little harpsichord part. The piece before was the Pastorale symphony. It was exciting to be standing backstage a few feet from the brass section while this symphony was going on. Sometimes I wish I played an orchestra instrument.

[atserriotserri]

I think you're right, because of many reasons, among them:

1. Attending at a live performance you're 100% concentrated on enjoying the music, you've done a more significative act than just play a cd and you act according to its relevance. Plus, no stereo equipment will provide you the emotion of sitting in front of an orchestra when, 3 seconds before starting to play, conductor looks at the orchestra and prepares to "start the engine".

2. You don't have neighbours at a concert hall

3. Natural sound is and will always be natural sound, recorded sound is and will always be recorded sound.

Nevertheless, if one unplugs the phone (makes damn sure the old witch who lives above is not at home ), turns off the lights and does anything but listen (cd) or watches and listen (dvd) the experience may be moving too if one really desires enjoying one piece of music. Not the same, but quite close.

I think that part of the distance between attending at a concert and listening a cd is because the "ritual" of listening to music has disappeared. It's as simple as picking the cd, put it in the player and push play, this means one walks, practices sport, works, recapitulates his agenda, thinks about what to do tomorrow, cooks, makes the clean-up of the house... while listening to music. Few times one can behave like he is at a concert hall, that is, not doing anything but listen and enjoy music.

[Peter]

Haffner I agree with your post (though like Spaceray I'm not sure why the Chopin displeased you!). Nothing compares to a live performance, music is a shared experience and this is lost on a Walkman!
Mahler is a wonderful composer in my estimation, but admittedly difficult on account of the length of concentration needed.

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'Man know thyself'

[spaceray]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Haffner:
[B]Last week, at my second subscription concert to the Toronto Symphony Orchestra, I had the misfortune of hearing Emmanual Ax perform Chopin's Second Piano Concerto...
[QUOTE]

Haf,
Did you not care for Emmanual Ax or was it the Chopin that put you off?
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