Was Beethoven Black?

[v russo]

Originally posted by mrfixit:
A black person once told me Beethoven was one quarter black. Perhaps this is possible?

perhaps fix-it. And perhaps I am his half cousin and also black.



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v russo

[v russo]

Originally posted by dbass:
Black Beethoven!? I remember first hearing this issue in the media (radio) while living in San Francisco in the mid 60s (1965-66), a time of great struggles; Civil Rights, Viet Nam and the
Hippie Flower Power thing. The issue/question
quickly died (for an obvious reason)and nothing further was heard about it untill now, here. How does one cross ref a lame rumor?

db

...by keep talking to the ignorant who perpetuate such outlandish B.S. rumors.

Yes, the all inclusivness of PC has even incorporated our very own Ludwig Von. Everything in this world that is great is attributed to some minority right?? I mean, the ruling classes of Europe and ancient Greece couldn't have had anything to do with anything worthwhile in this world ...right??
...of course not.

I mean, we wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings and leave anyone out right?

please.

This topic is a joke and an insult to reasonable people everywhere.



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v russo

[King Stephen]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
I don't personally give a damn what he was, but this is the sort of thing that is ginned up for some political reason, and one can't allow that to happen as though he were a pawn in someone's big game. In any case, it is silly, if one wished to go back far enough, we are ALL Africans, and in fact most of us have trouble in our lives at some point, so if you put those things together, it can be fairly stated that being African and having trouble in life must be related! What a leap of logic!

Gurn, that was the object of my post. It borders on the ridiculous to even spend time hashing over subjects like this.

[ILoveLudwig]

My piano teacher at the University of California once attended a Beethoven seminar in Detroit (in the 1970's) and returned to our next lesson, excited and enthusiastic, exclaiming, "Beethoven was Black! They did a geneology report at the seminar and his mother was part Moorish and Spanish, and that's where he inherited it." I'm not making this up, and since I, personally, am African-German-French-English-Irish-Mexican-Native American(family tree goes WAY back , but don't they all), I think it's kinda cool and one's ethnicity can positively contribute to one's music skills. Might explain the ruddy complexion, cute button nose, and dynamic excitement in his music...He had skills far beyond ethnicity...

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-26-2004).]

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-26-2004).]

[Peter]

Originally posted by ILoveLudwig:
My piano teacher at the University of California once attended a Beethoven seminar in Detroit (in the 1970's) and returned to our next lesson, excited and enthusiastic, exclaiming, "Beethoven was Black! They did a geneology report at the seminar and his mother was part Moorish and Spanish, and that's where he inherited it." I'm not making this up, and since I, personally, am African-German-French-English-Irish-Mexican-Native American(family tree goes WAY back , but don't they all), I think it's kinda cool and one's ethnicity can positively contribute to one's music skills. Might explain the ruddy complexion, cute button nose, and dynamic excitement in his music...He had skills far beyond ethnicity...

OK if you state that he was black give us the proof - the name and dates of the descendant who was from Spain and actually Moorish. His mother's family came from the Rhine and Moselle area (she was born near Koblenz), and his father's family (back to the 15th century) from Belguim.

Even if you manage to find this proof (which you won't), it doesn't make him black! It would only mean that he had a black ancestor as we all probably do if you go back far enough.
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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 06-26-2004).]

[Steppenwolf]

This is entirely absurd. Of course Beethoven wasn't black. It wouldn't matter one jot if he had been, but why re-write history? I have heard a few European historical figures described as black, when, on closer examination, they actually were nothing more than sun-tanned, or swarthy. That's like saying Nelson Mandela is actually white, because his skin isn't pitch-black, but actually a lighter shade of brown.

What is the motivation of people who say these things?

[v russo]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
What is the motivation of people who say these things? [/B]

the motivation is "all-inclusiveness" to the expense of truth and logic.


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v russo

[Gregorian_Chant_Lover]

I would have to agree with many of the other people here. He was a white male. I say that because all of his portraits portray him in a similar way: wild hair, somewhat stocky figure, and a slightly round face. Seeing as almost all portraits (except for maybe Andy Warhol's) portray him in the same way, I'd say he was a white male. Sorry...

[AndrewMyers]

I've read this thread with some interest and after careful consideration here are my thoughts (sorry to flog a dead horse if others would rather see this topic sink into oblivion!)


The issue really isn't the colour of his skin in any case but how he was classed socially.

Did Beethoven perceive himself as black? Did others perceive him as black?
Did he have to struggle against prejudice in order to be allowed to perform?
Does his music reflect any African ethhic influences?
Was he seen as an 'exotic' foreigner and treated accordingly?

I think we'd have to agree the answer to these questions is no. So even if he did have African DNA or whatever there doesn't appear to have been any important effect on his life or work. Much more interesting is the real struggle he fought in rasing the status of musician from servant to great artist (terrible simplification I know!)

That's my two euros worth.

[~Immortal Beloved~]

Originally posted by v russo:
Man, political correctness is out of hand, ...dont you think?

Yes...

[ILoveLudwig]

This is a fascinating series of exchanges, with perhaps one common sentiment:It really doesn't matter whether Beethoven had "Black" blood in his immediate ancestry; he was raised as a German and probably thought of himself that way. The "ruddy complexion" with which some people described him may have been because of ancestry or perhaps because he took walks every day and tanned easily. There are people in my family, now, and going back hundreds of years(DEFINITELY Afro-Am. family of mixed blood) who look and live/lived and looked as "white" as Beethoven, perhaps moreso, if you looked at their noses. He was a GREAT person and musician, which I feel is much more important. Coming out of "colonialism" which made such ethnic distinctions very crucial to one's "station" in life, we've been "conditioned" to focus on such things. His music and steadfastness are what made him great beyond time and location.(IMHO)

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-29-2004).]

[ILoveLudwig]

Oh, yes, and the seminar my piano teacher had attended was one held in Detroit around 1978. I don't have the details--I guess I'd have to contact him to see if he'd have the info or it could probably be searched on the Net, for those who wish to do it. My teacher appeared on the A&E biography of Beethoven, so perhaps someone considers him to be some sort of "expert," but nothing was mentioned about Beethoven's ancestry in the bio. Nor does it really MATTER to me--when I studied his music growing up at the Conservatory I attended, nor does it now when I play or teach his music--the emphasis is on the QUALITY of his music, and his determination to be a musician--it just might be an interesting contribution to speculation about his personality, musical or otherwise.

[ILoveLudwig]

Sorry, one more thing (don't mean to "hog" the board). Finally checked out the picture gallery linked above. He was a cute, sweet-looking child and a strikingly handsome man, however he got (to look) that way (again, IMHO). Fortunately, musicians TEND to ignore externals and focus more on the quality of a musician's output (not ALWAYS, but usually). Anyway, from personal experience, being "Black" or of mixed heritages isn't so "bad" a thing--it can actually be fun! But sometimes one has to ignore a lot of negativity! (By the way, is the planet Beethovinia anywhere near the planet Vulcan?)

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-29-2004).]

[This message has been edited by ILoveLudwig (edited 06-29-2004).]