Early Pianos - Question

[Steppenwolf]

A question for old instrument specialists.

I am aware that the pianos used in the late 18th and very early 19th centuries (in the time of Mozart and Beethoven), were somewhat different from modern pianos. I have some recordings done on these older style pianos (eg. Robert Levin playing Mozart piano concertos), and the sound is noticably different - it is lighter, and more 'silvery' than the heavier, fuller sound of the modern piano. This older style of piano was used in the movie Amadeus.

My question is - what is the technical difference? Did those older pianos have a different name? When did they change to the modern style?

I am looking to purchase in the near future a digital piano (I prefer the option of switching to different instrument sounds - from piano to harpsicord to pipe organ). Are there are digital pianos on the market which offer the sound of this older style of piano?

[Gurn Blanston]

SW,
Man, I can't believe that you have missed the ongoing discussion of this topic that has been going on non-stop for the 18 months that I have been here!! Most recently this was brought up in Rod's posting of the sonatas Op 27. Any of Rod's Authentic Instrument postings that are of piano sonatas in particular will have some discussion of fortepianos. Also numerous links are posted. I'm thinking that Rod hasn't answered this already because he thought perhaps you were not serious due to your longevity here, but anyway, he does have a lot of links about fortepianos, and if you know how to use the "search this site" feature you can probably find a lot more.


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Regards,
Gurn
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That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
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[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
SW,
Man, I can't believe that you have missed the ongoing discussion of this topic that has been going on non-stop for the 18 months that I have been here!!

I had to look twice to make sure I read what I thought I had read!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
I had to look twice to make sure I read what I thought I had read!

Rod,
I figured that was why you didn't answer after I saw that you had posted otherwise Well, more amazing things have happened, I just can't remember them right off.



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Peter]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
A question for old instrument specialists.

I am aware that the pianos used in the late 18th and very early 19th centuries (in the time of Mozart and Beethoven), were somewhat different from modern pianos. I have some recordings done on these older style pianos (eg. Robert Levin playing Mozart piano concertos), and the sound is noticably different - it is lighter, and more 'silvery' than the heavier, fuller sound of the modern piano. This older style of piano was used in the movie Amadeus.

My question is - what is the technical difference? Did those older pianos have a different name? When did they change to the modern style?

I am looking to purchase in the near future a digital piano (I prefer the option of switching to different instrument sounds - from piano to harpsicord to pipe organ). Are there are digital pianos on the market which offer the sound of this older style of piano?

The older pianos are now generally referred to as fortepianos to distinguish them from the modern pianoforte. The main difference is the frame which was made of wood but now it is iron. Babcock introduced the iron frame in 1825 (I think!) but there were problems with this which weren't really overcome until the 1860's when the old fortepiano became as the harpsichord before it, obsolete. There were other differences to do with the double escapement mechanism and materials used on dampers etc.., but basically the piano of today is the same as the 1860's design. Also the English action as represented by Broadwood became the dominant action as opposed to the lighter Viennese type.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
I figured that was why you didn't answer after I saw that you had posted otherwise Well, more amazing things have happened, I just can't remember them right off.

Well for starters I suggest you do a search here on the word 'fortepiano'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rutradelusasa]

Originally posted by Peter:
The older pianos are now generally referred to as fortepianos to distinguish them from the modern pianoforte. The main difference is the frame which was made of wood but now it is iron. Babcock introduced the iron frame in 1825 (I think!) but there were problems with this which weren't really overcome until the 1860's when the old fortepiano became as the harpsichord before it, obsolete. There were other differences to do with the double escapement mechanism and materials used on dampers etc.., but basically the piano of today is the same as the 1860's design. Also the English action as represented by Broadwood became the dominant action as opposed to the lighter Viennese type.

There are other differences too, for instance the strings. Today they are well reinforced and bigger too, so that the sound lasts longer and (being tougher to hit) is more round.
The strings back then were a bit less reinforced (the strings are actually a pair always, one that goes round the other) so they sounded different and (as Beethoven was well-known for) broke easier than today (which almost don´t break).

If you are to buy an eletric piano, buy a yamaha one (clavinova), you can customize the sound enough to get it close to a fortepiano (I increase the sensitivity, reduce the sound, the longevity of the sound and the color was changed a bit to a brighter sound) but not a real fortepiano. I don´t think any of these eletric pianos have fortepianos sound.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Rod:
Well for starters I suggest you do a search here on the word 'fortepiano'!

Rod,
I'm sure you intended to answer Steppenwolf and not me! I am already in possession of a full collection of "Rod's Pearls of Fortepiano Wisdom", which I have bound in leather and set next to my CD player for casual reading



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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
I'm sure you intended to answer Steppenwolf and not me! I am already in possession of a full collection of "Rod's Pearls of Fortepiano Wisdom", which I have bound in leather and set next to my CD player for casual reading

Unbelievable coincidence. I was able to pick up a used copy from a street peddler in Manhattan on Saturday at a very good price.

[Chris]

Originally posted by Steppenwolf:
I am looking to purchase in the near future a digital piano (I prefer the option of switching to different instrument sounds - from piano to harpsicord to pipe organ). Are there are digital pianos on the market which offer the sound of this older style of piano?

Yes. I have a Yamaha digital piano that has "classical piano" as one of the sounds. However, it is nothing more than a less bright sounding regular piano. It has none of the distinctive sounds of the fortepiano (particularly in the lower register). The other sounds are good - the organs, electric pianos, etc. but the "classical piano" is not even worth bothering with. On the other hand, there are a variety of temperments available for playing in a more authentic way, and it is possible to lower the tuning so that A is 415 or whatever you want.

[Gurn Blanston]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Unbelievable coincidence. I was able to pick up a used copy from a street peddler in Manhattan on Saturday at a very good price.

Chaszz,
You should not egg me on that way, you have no restraint, you rascal


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Joy]

Originally posted by Chaszz:
Unbelievable coincidence. I was able to pick up a used copy from a street peddler in Manhattan on Saturday at a very good price.

Cute!!



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Joy]

Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
[B]
The strings back then were a bit less reinforced (the strings are actually a pair always, one that goes round the other) so they sounded different and (as Beethoven was well-known for) broke easier than today (which almost don´t break).

B]

Reading your post made me remember about a concert some time ago where on stage a piano string did break right in the middle of a concert! The pianist kept right on going though. Another time I heard about that a violinist and pianist were performing together and the violinist let the bow go and it flew right into the opened concert grand! Now that would have been something to witness.



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'Truth and beauty joined'

[Gurn Blanston]

A friend of mine on another board ia a violist, and a violinist in thier quartet was playing some pizzicatos in a Bartok piece when the e string broke and came back and whipped her across the face, making a nice cut. She finished the piece with a stream of blood running down the side of her face! The show must go on!


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Regards,
Gurn
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Chris]

I've had a few cuts from my violin strings breaking. Broke one during a performance once (E of course) but was able to finish without it, and thankfully no cuts that time.

Once when I was in high school, once of the cellists broke her C string while tuning and it flew clear across the room and hit me in the leg (I had shorts on!). I've never seen a string just fly off like that - usually at least one end is still attatched.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited March 15, 2004).]