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Salieri and Schubert's Early Opinion of Beethoven

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    Salieri and Schubert's Early Opinion of Beethoven

    Writing Under the Influence?: Salieri and Schubert's Early Opinion of Beethoven

    By Christopher Gibbs

    2003, Current Musicology


    Edited extract: In 1822, Schubert dedicated his Variations on a French Theme for Piano Four-Hands, Op. 10 (D624) to Beethoven. This dedication was his most public and extravagant proclamation of an abiding reverence for the older master that he held until his dying day. Indeed, if Ferdinand Schubert is to be believed, his younger brother's last wish was to be buried near Beethoven, which is exactly what happened. A lifelong devotion is implied in Schubert's letters' and plainly stated in the recollections of family and friends. 2 The impress and challenge of Beethoven's music on Schubert's is also apparent from the start of his compositional career, and only intensified, I believe, as he matured and engaged with it ever more directly. 3 Beyond purely compositional matters, Schubert modeled his professional career on Beethoven's in crucial respects and benefited from his relations with many of the same performers, publishers, patrons, and critics who were involved with the older composer. Contemporaries frequently made comparisons between their compositions; as we shall see, critics usually mentioned Beethoven when reviewing Schubert's piano and chamber works. 4 While these circumstances are unsurprising-Beethoven was, after all, the preeminent composer of the time and the two men lived in the same city throughout Schubert's life-there is one sour note: Schubert's alleged hostility, early in his career, to Beethoven's music. In the Beethoven-Handbuch, for example, Theodor von Frimmel writes that "Under Salieri's influence, Schubert became alienated from Beethoven". 5 Alfred Einstein asserts that "Schubert was deeply disturbed by Beethoven, as was every Romantic. As a young man (on June 16, 1816), he even made a very critical reference to Beethoven's 'eccentricity, which unites the tragic with the comic ... '". 6 In fact, this single documentary source constitutes the evidence that has been advanced to support the idea of initial resistance, and for Maynard Solomon it exemplifies how "during Salieri's tutelage of Schubert ... the young composer became for a short while so heated an opponent of Beethoven's music".

    Here's the video of the work cited above:



    Full article here: https://www.academia.edu/59109677/Wr...and_Schuberts_ Early_Opinion_of_Beethoven?email_work_card=view-paper

    #2
    I suppose it is natural that Schubert would have been influenced by Salieri's views, clearly though he changed his mind fairly early on. It has to be one of the strangest things in music history that these two great composers, Beethoven and Schubert living in the same city had little to do with each other. Schubert's piano duet music is wonderful and this piece is no exception.
    'Man know thyself'

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      #3
      Interesting, I did not know Schubert was ever opposed to Beethoven's music, much less every Romantic!

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        #4
        I believe there is a quote in the 4th movement of Schubert's "Great" symphony in C Major of the Theme of Beethoven's 9th symphony (Finale). He must have envied him.
        Zevy

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          #5
          Originally posted by Zevy
          I believe there is a quote in the 4th movement of Schubert's "Great" symphony in C Major of the Theme of Beethoven's 9th symphony (Finale). He must have envied him.
          A direct quote or an allusion?

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            #6
            Originally posted by Quijote View Post
            A direct quote or an allusion?
            I'm with you on this, I don't even get it as an allusion - the same for the tune in 4th movt Brahms 1 in my opinion! I think people have read things into these works that the composers never intended.
            'Man know thyself'

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              #7
              Please have a listen and tell me if you hear what I hear: https://youtu.be/iYhtSG9fQYk?si=v1_I...XVksc&t=50m33s
              Zevy

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                #8
                Originally posted by Zevy View Post
                Please have a listen and tell me if you hear what I hear: https://youtu.be/iYhtSG9fQYk?si=v1_I...XVksc&t=50m33s
                Yes there is a resemblance but I'm not convinced that it was a conscious attempt to quote Beethoven as for example is clearly the case with Shostakovich's 15th symphony 1st movt and Rossini's overture to William Tell. Maybe Schubert was thinking of the theme in Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor when he wrote the 1st movt of sonata in C minor D.958?
                'Man know thyself'

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                  #9
                  Originally posted by Peter View Post

                  Yes there is a resemblance but I'm not convinced that it was a conscious attempt to quote Beethoven as for example is clearly the case with Shostakovich's 15th symphony 1st movt and Rossini's overture to William Tell. Maybe Schubert was thinking of the theme in Beethoven's 32 variations in C minor when he wrote the 1st movt of sonata in C minor D.958?
                  A quick search led me to at least one person who agrees with me on this:
                  https://agertushistoryofmusic.com/20...test-symphony/
                  Zevy

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by Zevy View Post

                    A quick search led me to at least one person who agrees with me on this:
                    https://agertushistoryofmusic.com/20...test-symphony/
                    That's an interesting article Zevy, thank you. I'm not saying that there isn't a similarity with the theme, only that I don't think we can know whether it was a conscious choice of Schubert or whether it was simply a theme that was assimilated in his subconscious and flowed naturally with his inspiration. Maybe it is just a coincidence as is likely the case with the opening of Beethoven's Eroica and Mozart's Bastien und Bastienne overture https://cosmicreflections.skythiswee...and-beethoven/

                    Often things were pointed out to Schumann in his own music such as imitation in the parts that he was completely unaware of. Interestingly the article you cite also makes this point about the Ode to Joy theme "This isn’t to say that Beethoven completely dispensed with melody–his Ode to Joy (whether or not it was intentionally borrowed from Mozart) is a singular melody in the history of music." The Mozart work in question is “Misericordias Domini,” K. 222. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dGgwydwG4 (skip to '56)
                    'Man know thyself'

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by Peter View Post

                      That's an interesting article Zevy, thank you. I'm not saying that there isn't a similarity with the theme, only that I don't think we can know whether it was a conscious choice of Schubert or whether it was simply a theme that was assimilated in his subconscious and flowed naturally with his inspiration. Maybe it is just a coincidence as is likely the case with the opening of Beethoven's Eroica and Mozart's Bastien und Bastienne overture https://cosmicreflections.skythiswee...and-beethoven/

                      Often things were pointed out to Schumann in his own music such as imitation in the parts that he was completely unaware of. Interestingly the article you cite also makes this point about the Ode to Joy theme "This isn’t to say that Beethoven completely dispensed with melody–his Ode to Joy (whether or not it was intentionally borrowed from Mozart) is a singular melody in the history of music." The Mozart work in question is “Misericordias Domini,” K. 222. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5dGgwydwG4 (skip to '56)
                      Thanks. I’m well aware of that “Eroica” theme in that Mozart overture. As a serious Mozart freak I made that association many decades ago.
                      I was not aware of the second example, but it is very interesting.
                      Last edited by Zevy; 08-24-2025, 01:34 PM.
                      Zevy

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Zevy View Post

                        Thanks. I’m well aware of that “Eroica” theme in that Mozart overture. As a serious Mozart freak I made that association many decades ago.
                        I was not aware of the second example, but it is very interesting.
                        Yes - is it possible that K.222 was performed at Bonn and Beethoven remembered it all those years later? I think unlikely and possibly this is just a coincidence.
                        'Man know thyself'

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