Bruckner 9th Question

[Sorrano]

Last night, on the radio program "Exploring Music", I listened to the Samale realization of the sketches of the 4th movement of Bruckner's 9th, performed by Eichhorn and the Bruckner Orchestra. I had previously heard (years ago) the Carragan version with Talmi/Oslo Philharmonic. It's been a long while since I heard the Carragan version but I recall it being fairly upbeat and more triumphant than the Samale version. The one I listened to last night seems more in line with the symphony than the Carragan version, but I really need to listen to that again before judging. The question, then, (for anyone familiar with both) is which one fits better in your opinions? From my own hearing lastnight of the Samale I would say that that one is a better fit, yet I do recall liking the Carragan quite a bit. Regardless of the two offerings I still feel that the 3rd movement is sufficient for a finale and for me resolves the entire work peacefully.

[Sorrano]

I found my CD with the Carragan version and confirmed that it sounds more upbeat, especially at the end, than the Salame. Both versions are dark and foreboding to me with a more definite resolution in the Carragan.

[Quijote]

Which Samale version are you referring to, Sorrano? The Samale–Mazzuca completion of 1984 (revised in 1985/1988), or the Samale–Mazzuca–Phillips–Cohrs completion of 1992, (revised in 1996, 2005, 2007, 2012 and 2021)?

Also, check this out (latest revisions made by John Phillips in 2021-2022):

[Sorrano]

Which Samale version are you referring to, Sorrano? The Samale–Mazzuca completion of 1984 (revised in 1985/1988), or the Samale–Mazzuca–Phillips–Cohrs completion of 1992, (revised in 1996, 2005, 2007, 2012 and 2021)?

Also, check this out (latest revisions made by John Phillips in 2021-2022):

As far as I can tell it must be the 1992 version, performed by the Bruckner Orchestra under Eichhorn. I will take a listen later today, after work, to the latest that you posted. Thanks for posting that! It's seems oddly appropriate that there are several versions of the finale, just as there are of his other symphonies.

[Sorrano]

As far as I can tell it must be the 1992 version, performed by the Bruckner Orchestra under Eichhorn. I will take a listen later today, after work, to the latest that you posted. Thanks for posting that! It's seems oddly appropriate that there are several versions of the finale, just as there are of his other symphonies.

Had a listen this evening. Seems that I keep hearing fragments from previous symphonies, but can't pinpoint anything specific. The ending of this version sounded more triumphant than the previous version (1992) and sounded more like the Carragan. I have the '92 version with Simon Rattle conducting but it's been a long time since I've heard that, long enough that I forgot I had it and was only thinking of the Carragan version when I heard the '92 version Wednesday night. What are your thoughts about the finale? Personally, I think that it is in character with the rest of the symphony but I have to say I prefer the sublime ending of the 3rd movement to the sketch realizations. I am left feeling unsettled with them but I have a sense of completion and resolution at the end of the 3rd.

Sorry for the rambling. I like both general versions of the 4th but am not convinced that it should be permanently attached to the symphony.

[Quijote]

As far as I can tell it must be the 1992 version, performed by the Bruckner Orchestra under Eichhorn. I will take a listen later today, after work, to the latest that you posted. Thanks for posting that! It's seems oddly appropriate that there are several versions of the finale, just as there are of his other symphonies.

As you say, it is appropriate in some way! I'm just glad that we have these various reconstructed performing versions of the finale so that we have an idea of what Bruckner had in mind before he died.

[Quijote]

Had a listen this evening. Seems that I keep hearing fragments from previous symphonies, but can't pinpoint anything specific. The ending of this version sounded more triumphant than the previous version (1992) and sounded more like the Carragan. I have the '92 version with Simon Rattle conducting but it's been a long time since I've heard that, long enough that I forgot I had it and was only thinking of the Carragan version when I heard the '92 version Wednesday night. What are your thoughts about the finale? Personally, I think that it is in character with the rest of the symphony but I have to say I prefer the sublime ending of the 3rd movement to the sketch realizations. I am left feeling unsettled with them but I have a sense of completion and resolution at the end of the 3rd.

Sorry for the rambling. I like both general versions of the 4th but am not convinced that it should be permanently attached to the symphony.

You're not rambling at all, no worries!

As I said just above, I'm really quite happy that we have various opportunities to get an idea of the sort of finale Bruckner envisaged before he died. I wouldn't hesitate to attend and approve a live concert of this symphony with an added reconstruction of the finale so long as this was made clear in the programme notes.

Unlike the so-called "Beethoven's 10th Symphony" (Barry Cooper's highly speculative reconstruction of very fragmentary sketches), Bruckner did in fact leave a good volume of sketch folios and the musicologists had a lot more authentic material to work with. But it's probably the case that had Bruckner lived longer he would have made extensive revisions before publication. Again, as I say, these reconstructions of the finale are the result of excellent musicological "forensics" and I wholeheartedly applaud the superb efforts made by all the musicologists involved.

[Sorrano]

You're not rambling at all, no worries!

As I said just above, I'm really quite happy that we have various opportunities to get an idea of the sort of finale Bruckner envisaged before he died. I wouldn't hesitate to attend and approve a live concert of this symphony with an added reconstruction of the finale so long as this was made clear in the programme notes.

Unlike the so-called "Beethoven's 10th Symphony" (Barry Cooper's highly speculative reconstruction of very fragmentary sketches), Bruckner did in fact leave a good volume of sketch folios and the musicologists had a lot more authentic material to work with. But it's probably the case that had Bruckner lived longer he would have made extensive revisions before publication. Again, as I say, these reconstructions of the finale are the result of excellent musicological "forensics" and I wholeheartedly applaud the superb efforts made by all the musicologists involved.

I would suggest that the musicologists involved work for a few years to get a second or third version of the finale. That would probably give wider acceptance to the finale, especially among Bruckner enthusiasts.

I, too, would attend such a concert as you suggested.