Beethoven String quartet op. 59.2 E-Minor - for ORCHESTRA

[Peter]

Well, that's exactly the point, isn't it? That's why Beethoven's initial inspiration/conception drove him to compose a piano sonata in this particular instance. I do wonder though what is inherent in the original material that makes composers such as Beethoven opt for an instrumental sonata rather than go, say, for a symphony.

EDIT: My point is not clear. What I'm trying to figure out is when a composer has a creative moment and quickly writes down the melody, a short sketch, etc., what in that original flash makes them decide that the material will be best exploited in solo instrumental form, or as a quartet, or as a symphony, etc.

With Classical and Baroque composers I think a lot was down to the requirements -e.g. Bach writing Cantatas, Haydn Symphonies etc.. Tchaikovsky would conceive a piece with the orchestral colours and sounds in mind. I think Berlioz, Ravel and Rimsky-Korsakov must have worked the same way. I take those composers as examples because of their brilliant orchestration abilities.

[gprengel]

I must admit that so far from the third Rasumowsky Quartett I loved only the Finale, but now after orchestrating the whole quartet I adore all 4 movements! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI--cyyntuw

[Quijote]

Hello gprengel,
I was hoping for a reply to a recent posting I made above about Beethoven's own arrangement of his 9th Piano Sonata (E major, Op. 14, No. 1) for string quartet (Hess 34).
I know that you're into orchestrating Beethoven sonatas and string quartets and I appreciate your efforts in that regard.
In light of Beethoven's own arrangement and his comments about that and what Tovey had to say about such endeavours (see Peter's comment above), I was wondering what you made of Beethoven's arrangement concerning what he decided to leave out, what he added and, more generally, the ideas that govern the rendering of one musical medium into another.

[gprengel]

Hello gprengel,
I was hoping for a reply to a recent posting I made above about Beethoven's own arrangement of his 9th Piano Sonata (E major, Op. 14, No. 1) for string quartet (Hess 34).
.

Hi, Quijote, thank you very much for hinting us to that string quartett arrangement! Wow - I didn't know that before and I think I like it even more than the original version! I compared now roughly the original score with the string quartet version (from the IMSPL website) and I am astonished about how different both scores are - especially in the last movement where the quartet version is much more interesting (syncopes beneath the main theme and the fantastic development is much more elaborated , replacing all pianistic patterns ...

There are very pianistic movements which are very hard to orchestrate or to set for a string quartet (like this Finale or the 1st. mov. from op.31.2 (d-minor) or 1st mov. op. 109 or op. 57) and there are those which are quite easy.(Finale from the op. 31,2 or 1st. mov. from op. 111). Generelly it is much easier to orchestrate a string quartet than a piano sonata.

[Quijote]

Hi, Quijote, thank you very much for hinting us to that string quartett arrangement! Wow - I didn't know that before and I think I like it even more than the original version! I compared now roughly the original score with the string quartet version (from the IMSPL website) and I am astonished about how different both scores are - especially in the last movement where the quartet version is much more interesting (syncopes beneath the main theme and the fantastic development is much more elaborated , replacing all pianistic patterns ...

There are very pianistic movements which are very hard to orchestrate or to set for a string quartet (like this Finale or the 1st. mov. from op.31.2 (d-minor) or 1st mov. op. 109 or op. 57) and there are those which are quite easy.(Finale from the op. 31,2 or 1st. mov. from op. 111). Generelly it is much easier to orchestrate a string quartet than a piano sonata.

Yes, this is all very much to do with the art of arrangement/orchestration. I studied orchestration at university and I came to the conclusion later (when I became a teacher) that our teacher was a rather poor one; we were told to purchase a copy of an orchestration manual written by Gordon Jacob, do a bunch of exercises and work it out ourselves with barely any examples from the repertoire. The Beethoven arrangement above would have been a great resource to exploit if our teacher had been worth his salt.

[gprengel]

and what do you think of my op. 59,3 orchestration?

[Peter]

Yes, this is all very much to do with the art of arrangement/orchestration. I studied orchestration at university and I came to the conclusion later (when I became a teacher) that our teacher was a rather poor one; we were told to purchase a copy of an orchestration manual written by Gordon Jacob, do a bunch of exercises and work it out ourselves with barely any examples from the repertoire. The Beethoven arrangement above would have been a great resource to exploit if our teacher had been worth his salt.

I had Walter Piston which was as I recall quite a good resource, also his Harmony & counterpoint.

[Quijote]

and what do you think of my op. 59,3 orchestration?

I've only listened to the first movement. Highly competent, there's no doubt; you make a good spread of the instruments and I would say you succeed very well in translating their respective idioms. On the other hand, if I may be frank, there are passages that come across as "muddy" (texturally clumsy) and at times there are passages that come across as "2-dimensional", by which I mean a too-literal translation of the original score. Another obstacle, which is beyond anyone's control, is very much due to the "relentless" pace of the Finale software that obliterates rhythmic nuances.
So yes, excellent work overall, Gerd. My question now would be: why didn't Beethoven envisage this as a symphony in the first place; this is what I'm trying to work out: what, in the original inspiration and sketches, made Beethoven develop the material into a string quartet and not a symphony?

[gprengel]

... My question now would be: why didn't Beethoven envisage this as a symphony in the first place; this is what I'm trying to work out: what, in the original inspiration and sketches, made Beethoven develop the material into a string quartet and not a symphony?

Maybe Beethoven was not always only romantic but also pragmatic - he got the comission by Rasumowsky to wrote some string quartets and this is what he did.
There are string quartet movements which can be very well arranged for a symphony (like all of op. 59,2 and 59,3 or the Finale from op. 131 in c#) but others can't - like op. 59,1 (where only the Adagio fits very well for a symphony movement), or op. 74, op. 127 or 132 (where only the Finale is suited for an orchestra)