Evidences: Beethoven proposed to Magdalena Willmann around 1795 ??

[thesunlover]

Is it true or false that Beethoven proposed to Magdalena Willmann and was rejected brutally around 1795?

One of Miss Willmann's nieces told Thayer this story around 1860, more than 60 years after the "proposal". Other than this, what other evidences are there to support this story? Why do so many people including Solomon and Lockwood believe it?

I need more evidences to believe it.

[AeolianHarp]

Is it true or false that Beethoven proposed to Magdalena Willmann and was rejected brutally around 1795?

One of Miss Willmann's nieces told Thayer this story around 1860, more than 60 years after the "proposal". Other than this, what other evidences are there to support this story? Why do so many people including Solomon and Lockwood believe it?

I need more evidences to believe it.

Oh that nasty piece who called him crazy and ugly...That's all that is "known" really, what you have said above. I am inclined to think that one made it up to boost her ego.

[Peter]

Is it true or false that Beethoven proposed to Magdalena Willmann and was rejected brutally around 1795?

One of Miss Willmann's nieces told Thayer this story around 1860, more than 60 years after the "proposal". Other than this, what other evidences are there to support this story? Why do so many people including Solomon and Lockwood believe it?

I need more evidences to believe it.

There is no further evidence for this, except Beethoven refers in a letter of 1816 that he had only really truly been in love and that was with a woman he had met five years previously (1811) obviously ruling out Magdalena Willmann - I suspect Magdalena liked the idea of boosting her own importance in Beethoven's story and had boasted of this to her niece.

[AeolianHarp]

There is no further evidence for this, except Beethoven refers in a letter of 1816 that he had only really truly been in love and that was with a woman he had met five years previously (1811) obviously ruling out Magdalena Willmann - I suspect Magdalena liked the idea of boosting her own importance in Beethoven's story and had boasted of this to her niece.

Yes, I am inclined to think that of this woman too Peter- Oh look I turned down the great Maestro..

[thesunlover]

I am trying to prove this story is untrue in my essay.

Miss Willmann's name can't be found in any Beethoven's letters, diaries and conversation books. Agree?

I want to know if any of these people, Wegeler, Ries, Czerny and Schindler, mentioned Magdalena Willmann in their memoirs.

Anyone knows?

[AeolianHarp]

Schindler is not always reliable so discount him, unless what he wrote ties in with someone reliable. I don't know if he mentioned this woman- I have his memoirs on Kindle buit not read it yet. If you are interested it's free to download on Amazon.

Gerhard von Breuning didn't mention this woman in his wonderful memoirs. I don't know about the other men you mentioned. Perhaps Peter will know more- but he did say there is no further evidence, so I am assuming the only source is that woman's niece.

[Peter]

I am trying to prove this story is untrue in my essay.

Miss Willmann's name can't be found in any Beethoven's letters, diaries and conversation books. Agree?

I want to know if any of these people, Wegeler, Ries, Czerny and Schindler, mentioned Magdalena Willmann in their memoirs.

Anyone knows?

Well you can't prove it is untrue - it is highly unlikely but that of course isn't the same thing. The fact that no other source refers to this proves nothing as Beethoven may simply have never discussed what he either regarded as a humiliation or a moment of foolishness and preferred to forget about. It may well be in a fanciful moment he did propose to her, but not with any serious intent. Equally likely is that either the niece or Magdalena invented the whole thing, possibly because she was peeved that he didn't propose to her!!

[AeolianHarp]

Equally likely is that either the niece or Magdalena invented the whole thing, possibly because she was peeved that he didn't propose to her!!

I bet that was it! I mean, it looks like she was putting this story about after Ludwig had passed on.

Whatever happened she didn't have good intentions in relating this tale, laughing that she had refused his offer and insulting his looks and character.

[thesunlover]

You are right, Peter. I can't prove the story is untrue. What I can do is to explain it is unlikely to happen.

Can someone figure it out why Solomon and Lockwood believed the story? Solomon refers Ms Willmann in more than 5 places in his book.

[Peter]

You are right, Peter. I can't prove the story is untrue. What I can do is to explain it is unlikely to happen.

Can someone figure it out why Solomon and Lockwood believed the story? Solomon refers Ms Willmann in more than 5 places in his book.

No more than I can figure out why Solomon believes Antonie Brentano to be the Immortal beloved!

[AeolianHarp]

No more than I can figure out why Solomon believes Antonie Brentano to be the Immortal beloved!

Cos he makes money selling his lies..

[AeolianHarp]

You are right, Peter. I can't prove the story is untrue. What I can do is to explain it is unlikely to happen.

Can someone figure it out why Solomon and Lockwood believed the story? Solomon refers Ms Willmann in more than 5 places in his book.

Solomon is the type of biographer who loves gossipy stories and trivia of the salacious kind- so he of course loves that "story"! He is obsessed with Ludwig's "inability" to find a wife, and all other sorts of nonsense, and loves to psychobabble about him. I find it disrescpectful to a genius composer who had a good heart.

A true biographer looks at the individual's mansucripts ( letters, diaries etc )and doesn't distort them for their own ends. Solomon has mistranslated many of Ludwig's letters and put two different letters together in one "translation" in order to twist the meaning. Really, it is best to read the original documents in German or have a trusted translator.

Best place for Solomon's books- the recycling bin.

[JohnSpecialK]

Magdalena, Beethoven's early love

Even though in Klapproth, John E: The Immortal Beloved Compendium. Everything About the Only Woman Beethoven Ever Loved (Comprehensive Edition). Charleston, SC: CreateSpace 2018, I mentioned this as "anecdotal", there was more evidence than the much later boasting by one of Magdalena's nieces that Beethoven was indeed in love with her (ca. 1795/6), like Frimmel, Theodor von: Beethovens "unsterbliche Geliebte" [Beethoven's "Immortal Beloved"]. In: Bühne und Welt (1912), pp. 393-400, who even regarded Magdalena Willmann as the addressee of the great Letter to the "Immortal Beloved" and thought it was written in 1795 (where 6 July was a Monday). She married in 1796, however, and died in 1801.

There is not little to be found in Beethoven's music: The Song "Adelaide" op. 46, one of the most moving love songs by Beethoven, was performed by Magdalena (an excellent singer), as well as the Aria "Ah! Perfido" op. 65 which is particularly interesting as it deals with a woman's rage after having been abandoned by her lover - obviously Beethoven was here alluding to the opposite scenario: his proposal was rejected, and in the same year (1796) Magdalena married one Galvani.

There is also much to be found in some of the Sonatas for Piano as well as Violin & Piano of that time (i.e., before 1799 when Beethoven first met and immediately fell in love with Josephine) where the name "Mag-da-le-na" appears to be syllabically intonated.

Very peculiar is finally Op. 26 Piano Sonata #12 in A flat (with "Funeral March"), with the unexplained title "Sonate pour M.", written in 1801 when Magdalena died! (A flat is also the key of Op. 110, the Piano Sonata written after Josephine's death in 1821, which sounds like a requiem) - See Steblin, Rita: Who died? The funeral march in Beethoven's Eroica symphony. In: The Musical Quarterly (2006), pp. 62-79, asked whom Beethoven might have meant by the "Marcia Funebre" of the Eroica (most likely Max Franz, his benefactor in Bonn, who had died just when Beethoven wanted to dedicate the Eroica to him - not Napoleon!)

For recent research see Padgham Albrecht, Carol: Before the Immortal Beloved: The Opera Career of Beethoven’s Early Love, Magdalena Willmann Galvani. The Rocky Mountain Chapter of The American Musicological Society 2010 (http://www.ams-net.org/chapters/rock...acts_2010.html).

Another earlier source is: Volbach, Fritz: Beethoven. Munich: Kirchheim 1905.

[Michael]

I was reading this thread for a while before I realised it was about four years old.
There's a lot of interesting facts in your update, John, but I wonder will we ever know for sure who the Immortal Beloved was? She was probably never aware of that title herself as the letter containing that epithet was, as far as I know, never received by her.

[JohnSpecialK]

We do know for sure!

First a correction of a mistake: Beethoven wanted to dedicate the Eroica not to Max Franz (as opposed to Napoleon), it was the First Symphony.

Anyway: will we ever know for sure who the Immortal Beloved was? Well, we do know for sure, as I tried to explicate in my books (last "The Immortal Beloved Compendium"): There is no other woman who "ticks all the boxes" but Josephine Brunsvik.

She was probably never aware of that title herself? What "title"? If anything, this woman - and only Josephine Brunsvik - knew very well, how "immortal" Beethoven's love for her was. And don't forget the at least 8 love letters she wrote to him (there are none to any other woman), the mythological ("Werther") implications of the names given by her to Beethoven's child (Minona, Selma, Arria), her mysterios letter draft of 1818 - just on Minona's birthday, etc. pp.

He called her his "Only Beloved", his "Angel", his "Everything" in many of his 16 love letters to her - including the last one of 1812 (where as an aside the ever since ossified term "Immortal Beloved" also occurred, at the end).

The letter containing that epithet was ... never received by her: So what?

If you care to look at the details of the appalling fate of this woman (not only the well-known problems the composer suffered because of this), then it would be inapposite to add insult to injury. (See "Josephine's 14 Stations" in my book.)