Missa Solemnis

[listenlouder]

Missa Solemnis is an excellent composition and one that Beethoven spent a majority of his time and energy on. He considered it his best work. My question is why does it recieve so little attention? Also, out of curiousity, does anyone know where the Beethoven manuscript is now housed?

[Rod]

Originally posted by listenlouder:
Missa Solemnis is an excellent composition and one that Beethoven spent a majority of his time and energy on. He considered it his best work. My question is why does it recieve so little attention? Also, out of curiousity, does anyone know where the Beethoven manuscript is now housed?

Good question Mr. Listenlouder. Perhaps it's too difficult, or not popular amongst the superficial concert-going public. I for one don't know. I have asked the same question of Fidelio in the past, but with Fidelio the answer is perhaps rather more simple, knowing the opera-loving class (generally the lowest of the low).

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Serge]

Rod, what do you mean by saying the opera-going public is the lowest of the low? I thought anyone who'd see an opera was pretty cultured! (I dislike opera myself, but that doesn't mean anything!!)

[Peter]

Well Serge, having been to 2 of our most illustrious Opera houses in the UK , namely Covent Garden and Glyndebourne I think I know exactly what Rod means.The whole thing is a society occasion that has very little to do with music and everything to do with snobbery.I am generalising here of course, and I apologise to anyone who actually goes to these venues for the right reasons and the right Operas - Fidelio being one of a few that are worthwhile! I think Rod is also probably referring to the Opera going public's craving for a pretty tune they can hum themselves to sleep with !
There is nothing new in this and certainly little culture.

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'Man know thyself'

[Luis]

Have you listened Karajan's Missa Solemnis from 1966 for DG? (double Cd with Mozart's Coronation Mass). To me is a very deep and expressive interpretation, but the sound quality so poor! Do you know any other good version but in DDD 20 bits sound?
I'm also looking for a good Mass in C, Op.86 and Christ on the Mount of Olives, Op.85. Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 11-01-2000).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:
Have you listened Karajan's Missa Solemnis from 1966 for DG? (double Cd with Mozart's Coronation Mass). To me is a very deep and expressive interpretation, but the sound quality so poor! Do you know any other good version but in DDD 20 bits sound?
I'm also looking for a good Mass in C, Op.86 and Christ on the Mount of Olives, Op.85. Any suggestions?

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 11-01-2000).]

From my experience I am not yet totally convinced by this 20bit sound technology. You need perfect hearing and a perfect hi-fi (I have neither) to get the most from it, so transparent is the sound.

If you are a Karajan fan, I used to have a DDD recording of the Missa done by him in the '80's that was packaged in a gold box with a cross on the front (it probably has been re-issued in a different pack by now I suspect). It was pretty good apart from the lumbering Credo, with good sound also.

For other recordings I can recommend John Eliot Gardiner and the London Baroque soloists recording on Archiv or the Hanover band on Nimbus.

For the totally under-rated Mass in C, Gardiner's other Archiv disk is the choice par excellance.

By coincidence I have Christus in my walkman today. It is a new recording by the Chorus Musicus and Das Neue Orchester, conducted by Christoph Spering (Opus 111 label). This recording also is the first choice for this work, consider no other.

If you buy any of these and don't like them I give you your money back if you can give sufficient justification for your displeasure! However these are 'Baroque Beethoven' period recordings which may not suit some tastes, but are particularly well suited to church music.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

Well Serge, having been to 2 of our most illustrious Opera houses in the UK , namely Covent Garden and Glyndebourne I think I know exactly what Rod means.The whole thing is a society occasion that has very little to do with music and everything to do with snobbery.I am generalising here of course, and I apologise to anyone who actually goes to these venues for the right reasons and the right Operas - Fidelio being one of a few that are worthwhile! I think Rod is also probably referring to the Opera going public's craving for a pretty tune they can hum themselves to sleep with !
There is nothing new in this and certainly little culture.

You have summised my position perfectly, and I am glad I'm not the only one who has noticed this phenomenon. Perhaps the situation is more particular to England than other nations. We are not a true 'opera-blooded' race I think, but then you have to go back to Handel to witness the last good stage music (or indeed music of any sort) written in this country! I could go on to mention the lowest of the lowest of the sub-classes within the opera fraternity, whose derranged personalities verge on the psychotic...

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Rod:
I could go on to mention the lowest of the lowest of the sub-classes within the opera fraternity, whose derranged personalities verge on the psychotic...

Rod

You must be referring to Wagnerians ! - I think Wagner must be one of the few composers to inspire such madness - that's not to say that I don't admire some of his music - there are some though who regard it as a religion and worship at the Bayreuth shrine. I think the reason for this is that Wagner's music is satiated with passion - and it is a well known psychological fact that uncontrollable passion can lead to insanity.

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:
You must be referring to Wagnerians ! - I think Wagner must be one of the few composers to inspire such madness - that's not to say that I don't admire some of his music - there are some though who regard it as a religion and worship at the Bayreuth shrine. I think the reason for this is that Wagner's music is satiated with passion - and it is a well known psychological fact that uncontrollable passion can lead to insanity.

Heck, I don't need to think any more Peter, you can do it for me. With regard to Wagners 'passionate' music, I prefer the term overbearing. I've heard Baroque arias that are infinitely more ravishing and erotic than anything I've heard from Wagner, who is a mere amateur by comparison. Passion should be a two way trip, a factor lost in a personality like Wagner, who is stricty and unstoppably one-way. Perhaps this is what causes the 'insanity'!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Luis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
From my experience I am not yet
totally convinced by this 20bit sound technology.

(Luis)
- All 20 bits CDs I have that come to my mind right now sound wonderfully. It might be coincidence, though, since they might be less than ten, I think.

Thanks for the recommendations I'll give them a listen

(Rod)
However these are 'Baroque Beethoven' period recordings which may not suit some tastes, but are particularly well suited to church music.

I agree with this. It's funny but the first period instrument performance I heard was B's 3rd symphony on TV about two years ago. (and 3rd is not what you can call "church" music, huh!). But in spite of that, I liked it very much. I can't remember the orchestra or director but I would never forget how absolutely weird all that looked and sounded like. All was gloomy: The concert hall was dark and frightful, men in the orchestra were wearing some horrible looong black suits and looong ties, women were on some awful and mourning dresses, while the director looked exactly like the Adams Family butler (I swear it!).
And that horrible and rustic instruments!!! Men! I thought I was on another whole dimension listening to the concert in honor to the judgment day!
To make matters worse they were playing the second movement when I turned the TV on (!). Is this gloomy style common to all period instruments orchestras, they are all freaks if so!
Anyway, I really enjoyed the piece and at once thought that kind of instruments would be perfect for church music, string chamber music or "religious / spiritual / baroque" interpretations in general. (B's late quartets slow movements should sound perfect on them)

I think however that some period instruments sound better than other. Strings sound GREAT to me and for some pieces I can say those "hunting" horns sound cool too. But I don't like the rest of the brass and, the clarinets and tympanis (these last ones are way too rustic and military to me)

I can't imagine the Missa Solemnis "Symphonic power" so well developed on period instruments, but I'll check it out.

Greetings, Luis.

[Rod]

Originally posted by Luis:

...I agree with this. It's funny but the first period instrument performance I heard was B's 3rd symphony on TV about two years ago. (and 3rd is not what you can call "church" music, huh!). But in spite of that, I liked it very much. I can't remember the orchestra or director but I would never forget how absolutely weird all that looked and sounded like. All was gloomy: The concert hall was dark and frightful, men in the orchestra were wearing some horrible looong black suits and looong ties, women were on some awful and mourning dresses, while the director looked exactly like the Adams Family butler (I swear it!).
And that horrible and rustic instruments!!! Men! I thought I was on another whole dimension listening to the concert in honor to the judgment day!
To make matters worse they were playing the second movement when I turned the TV on (!). Is this gloomy style common to all period instruments orchestras, they are all freaks if so!
Anyway, I really enjoyed the piece and at once thought that kind of instruments would be perfect for church music, string chamber music or "religious / spiritual / baroque" interpretations in general. (B's late quartets slow movements should sound perfect on them)

I think however that some period instruments sound better than other. Strings sound GREAT to me and for some pieces I can say those "hunting" horns sound cool too. But I don't like the rest of the brass and, the clarinets and tympanis (these last ones are way too rustic and military to me)

I can't imagine the Missa Solemnis "Symphonic power" so well developed on period instruments, but I'll check it out.

Greetings, Luis.[/B]

This sounds like a bizarre performance that is not typical, perhaps it was Halloween night! But all music sounds all little darker and more austere on period instruments, because they are typically tuned to a lower pitch, and because of the raw nature if the instruments themselves, which suits me fine.

Their seems to be some contradiction in your review of this performance, it was gloomy and wierd with horrible rustic instruments, yet you really enjoyed it!

With regard to the Missa, contrary to your expectation, it if anything sounds above all others better on period instruments! The 'symphonic power' here is more Handel than Mahler!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Peter]

Originally posted by Luis:

I can't remember the orchestra or director but I would never forget how absolutely weird all that looked and sounded like. All was gloomy: The concert hall was dark and frightful, men in the orchestra were wearing some horrible looong black suits and looong ties, women were on some awful and mourning dresses, while the director looked exactly like the Adams Family butler (I swear it!).
And that horrible and rustic instruments!!! Men! I thought I was on another whole dimension listening to the concert in honor to the judgment day!

Some of these 'authentics' do come across as a weird lot - the earlier the music the weirder they tend to look! Ever seen the Dolmetsch family with their Viols ?
'Classical' music in general has one almighty image problem - I'm not suggesting it should go down the pop road (a la Vanessa Mae or dear Nigel Kennedy) but something needs to be done - it is vital to stimulate the interest of the younger generation or in future years we shall have nothing but our recordings and memories.

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'Man know thyself'

[Luis]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:

(…) Their seems to be some contradiction in your review of this performance, it was gloomy and weird with horrible rustic instruments, yet you really enjoyed it! (…)

No, there is not contradiction. When I said “horrible and rustic” I wasn’t referring to the sound of the instruments but their appearance. About the gloominess it was also part of the ambient (and the performers!). Anyway, if the sound of the instruments increased it, that wouldn’t be bad, specially for the second movement.

Hey, I’ve listened Gardiner’s Missa Solemnis yesterday!. I think I’ll buy it after listening others period instruments versions, which I’m planning to do. Honestly, I haven’t find it as the “best” version of the Missa (I prefer Karajan´s), but since I never consider ONE (the best “overall” version) as the only version I can enjoy, I can find on this or any other good version, interesting things.

This is indeed more darker, austere and, well, seems to be more a mass than mine. Also the voices are more “typical sacred voices”. The sound was sharper while there was some (not too much dough) wide or spatial sound. Was it recorded at a church or something? ¿Is this common to all PI recordings?

It seems to me anyway this is not a “radical” PI version, rather, I find it a bit temporizing. For example, I haven’t noted the so liked to me “sacred air” of the strings taken to the maximum effect (but this could be 1) because my Discman which’s equalization is too low or 2) because in the missa itself the string ensembles doesn’t have much protagonism). Neither I liked so much the violin solo in the Benedictus. The gut strings here doesn’t provide the depth that modern strings does. Now here there is a question on this point. What was the meaning B tried to give to this part? Because, having listening this part on modern instruments I thought there was human’s (not only sacred) deepest feelings involved. That was like a moment between the earth and heaven, a moment of meditation and repentance maybe, but now I don’t know since I haven’t found that aspect on this version. (I’m agnostic my self so this could explain my misinterpretations!).

PS:
About the symphonic power (vg. The opening of the last part of the Agnus Dei or last part of the Gloria) I prefer Karajan here also. All this does't mean I can't enjoy this version, which I do. If fact I'm going to buy it!

[Peter]

Although not normally a Klemperer fan, I still regard his version of the Missa with the New Philharmonia as the finest on modern instruments - he captures the Symphonic grandeur and architecture.
On period instruments, I thought this recording very impressive - Orchestre des Champs Elysses and the Choeurs de la Chapelle Royale et du Collegium Vocale, directed by Philippe Herreweghe (Harmonia Mundi HMC 901557)



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'Man know thyself'

[Peter]

Originally posted by listenlouder:
Also, out of curiousity, does anyone know where the Beethoven manuscript is now housed?

I think it is in the State library Berlin - or if you want the official title - Staatsbibliothek der Stiftung Preussischer Kulturbesitz, Berlin.

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'Man know thyself'