The 'detestable' Mass

[Peter]

On the 9th Aug 1807, Prince Nicolaus Esterhazy wrote to Countess Henriette Von Zielinska '...Beethoven's Mass is unbearably ridiculous and detestable, and I am not sure that it can ever be performed properly. I am angry and mortified.'
In a previous letter to Beethoven he had written 'Your expressed anxiety about a comparison with Haydn's Masses has only increased the value of your work.'
The work in question was Beethoven's first Mass in C Op.86 ,which to this day has always been underrated - I have not come across a public performance of this work ever ,and I have not heard it for years.I don't have a recording , so does anyone have any recommendations ?

[Rod]

Originally posted by Peter:

On the 9th Aug 1807, Prince Nicolaus Esterhazy wrote to Countess Henriette Von Zielinska '...Beethoven's Mass is unbearably ridiculous and detestable, and I am not sure that it can ever be performed properly. I am angry and mortified.'
In a previous letter to Beethoven he had written 'Your expressed anxiety about a comparison with Haydn's Masses has only increased the value of your work.'
The work in question was Beethoven's first Mass in C Op.86 ,which to this day has always been underrated - I have not come across a public performance of this work ever ,and I have not heard it for years.I don't have a recording , so does anyone have any recommendations ?

It was performed in London, once, some years back, I remember. Just another first rate Beethoven work belittled by the musical status quo in favour of B's more grander efforts. You know the score. Anyone with doubts about this piece should try the version on CD by Gardiner (Archiv label). This is really an excellent recording (as is his Missa Solemnis). Consider no others. I give you my money back guarantee with this recommendation.

Did you know at one time B considered dedicating the Mass in C to Napoleon?

Rod

[Michael]

I'm with Rod on the Gardiner. Buy it! I have reservations about his "Missa Solemnis", though.
Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Michael:
I'm with Rod on the Gardiner. Buy it! I have reservations about his "Missa Solemnis", though.
Michael

Gardiner's Kirie in the Missa is a little rushed for my taste, but the remainder is first class as far as I am concerned. What are your reservations?

[Michael]

Actually, I listened to Gardiner's "Missa Solemnis" soon after posting my last message and I enjoyed it but it lacks something and I don't have the command of musical terms to convey what that something is. I generally don't like Gardiner's work, the exception being the C major Mass.
I have five different versions of the Missa Solemnis and none of them get it right for me. The usual problem is the "Benedictus" with the violin solo which can sound horrendous if not handled rightly. You'll probably cringe when I say that the version I come back to most often is Klemperer's. In spite of weak soloists and an impossibly slow tempo at the end of the Gloria, he conveys the sheer grandeur of the work.
There is no denying that it's a piece that is almost impossible to perform well. Matthew Best, the conductor and singer, said recently: "It is totally flawed and yet I do not know a greater work!" I think I know what he means.
Michael

[Tony John Hearne]

Out of sheer curiosity I went back back to what seems to be the very beginning of this wonderful web site Can this be really almost four years old?

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Love from London

[melvyn]

I LOVE the Mass in C. One of my favourite Beethoven works.

I like the lovely serene opening, and the magical moment that the opening reappears again from nowhere right at the end of the work.

I saw it performed in Nottingham about 15 years ago with Jane Glover conducting, along with the 4th Piano Concerto and the Choral Fantasy. I believe this concert toured various venues in the UK at that time.

It has also been televised in the UK in the last 10 years, as I have it on video (now DVD).

Melvyn.

[Peter]

Originally posted by Tony John Hearne:
Out of sheer curiosity I went back back to what seems to be the very beginning of this wonderful web site Can this be really almost four years old?

Yes the forum has been going nearly 4 years! Nice to see some of the old topics emerge from the ether!

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'Man know thyself'

[Pastorali]

Originally posted by Peter:
Yes the forum has been going nearly 4 years! Nice to see some of the old topics emerge from the ether!

And already more than 1'000'000 visitors on your Website. Congratulations Peter!

[Tony John Hearne]

Peter a million!! That is truly wonderful Thanks for all your hard work I visit lots of classical music web sites but this one is a true inspiration which is why I always return

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Love from London

[earzz]

For those interested in hearing a concert of the Mass in C, the "Detestable Mass," the Riverside Choral Society is presenting the work this January in New York City. Information can be found at www.riversidechoral.org.
earzz (Baritone Ordinaire)

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Peter:

On the 9th Aug 1807, Prince Nicolaus Esterhazy wrote to Countess Henriette Von Zielinska '...Beethoven's Mass is unbearably ridiculous and detestable, and I am not sure that it can ever be performed properly. I am angry and mortified.'
In a previous letter to Beethoven he had written 'Your expressed anxiety about a comparison with Haydn's Masses has only increased the value of your work.'
The work in question was Beethoven's first Mass in C Op.86 ,which to this day has always been underrated - I have not come across a public performance of this work ever ,and I have not heard it for years.I don't have a recording , so does anyone have any recommendations ?

Dear Peter;

I have the two versions of the C-major mass:
1. The original Latin mass.
2. 3 German hymns.

Both versions are outstanding!


Hofrat

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by earzz:
For those interested in hearing a concert of the Mass in C, the "Detestable Mass," the Riverside Choral Society is presenting the work this January in New York City. Information can be found at www.riversidechoral.org.
earzz (Baritone Ordinaire)

At least on my browser (Firefox), that URL doesn't work. Try this:
http://www.riversidechoral.org/index.shtm

The admission seems to be free. There is also a work by Debussy on the program. ...Will they pay ME to listen to the Debussy??

[HaydnFan]

Chaszz, you don't like Debussy either?

[Johan]

Hello!

As I have stated already in other threads I love the Mass in C! The Gloria is floating extraordinarily, for example. My preferred recording is by Chailly.
Of Missa Solemnis (have there ever been a grander work?) I have four recordings and I have to say, that - as Michael above - I come always back to Klemperer. Only his Benedictus is flawed. Here I play Levine's.
What I can't understand from my viewpoint is, how one can say that the soloists are not good in Klemperer? How is this?