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    Pop and classical

    I've lurked in the shadows for the good part of a year now. I've gained valuable insight through this forum, but my pool of knowledge has been too shallow to float any meaningful contribution. My belief is that, generally, there is more to be gained through listening than speaking for the sake of speaking, but the recent posts about "daft programming," having revived (albeit briefly) a topic which has been discussed before, piqued my curiosity.

    Exceptions are noted, but why, on a personal basis, do most of you prefer classical to pop? This seems like an awful, almost irreverent question, but please, humor me. Classical is structurally more complex, but on an emotional level, modern music has the same potential, no? Previous comments on the purity of instrumental music interested me and in this regard, I do favor cm over pop. One entirely valid criticism of modern music is the uninspired lyrics in many recordings.

    Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness. Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European.

    I have friends who speak of cm as "noise" or incomprehensible and others who refuse to acknowledge metal or grunge as music. I enjoy and "relate to" (for lack of a better term) world, modern and classical, so while I respect their private views, I wish I personally knew someone who appreciates Music, with a captial 'm.' There's joy in listening to works which have transcended time, but there is also something to be said for living in the times and watching (or rather, listening to) history as it develops. What disturbs me is that some people play and turn on cm without actually hearing it. These people seem to like cm as background music, an accompaniment to other tasks at hand. I realize that for the majority, it is simply a matter of genuine preference (as is with those who are intensely involved), an argument could be made for the psychological comfort of a fixation on the past, of choosing music that is widely-accepted and already renowned.

    I disagree with the all-encompassing condemnation of compilations. While they are unsatisfying and even irritating to those who have been immersed in cm, they can be helpful for "beginners" who are yet unfamiliar with the "terrain." They can serve as springboards--listening to selections may help inexperienced audiences identify which styles and composers they enjoy most. However unimpressive, they're a start.

    Tentative observation: there seems to be a trend toward simplification in music as well as art (ie classicist realism and detail to Rothko and Mondrian--although, yes, postmodern art is more eclectic than anything else). Psycho-social-political explanations?

    I'll cease my ranting now...

    "When I get a little money, I buy books and if any is left I buy food and clothes."
    --Erasmus

    #2
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:
    I've lurked in the shadows for the good part of a year now. I've gained valuable insight through this forum, but my pool of knowledge has been too shallow to float any meaningful contribution.

    Glad you've finally come out of the closet!


    Exceptions are noted, but why, on a personal basis, do most of you prefer classical to pop? This seems like an awful, almost irreverent question, but please, humor me. Classical is structurally more complex, but on an emotional level, modern music has the same potential, no?

    What produces emotion in music? - it is harmony, dynamics, melody, rhythm. Now you can take any one of those and you will find much greater complexity, originality, variety, and depth in one phrase of a great composer (and for us here, that means Beethoven more than any other) than you could in a whole pop song. If you take Opera, the whole range of human emotions is explored - sometimes many different emotions are present at the same moment. The emotions in pop are pretty basic - happy or sad - cm goes much further than this in delving into the human state. Nothing in pop can match the power or expression of a symphony orchestra - the range of sounds is infinite. You never tire of listening to a great piece of music, as the more you listen the more you discover.


    Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness.


    I don't regard Classical music as one type of music - there are huge differences between composers.

    Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European.

    I agree - the more we listen to a societies music, the more we learn of their culture, which in today's global village is important. I'm afraid my knowledge of middle eastern music is rather limited!

    I have friends who speak of cm as "noise" or incomprehensible and others who refuse to acknowledge metal or grunge as music. I enjoy and "relate to" (for lack of a better term) world, modern and classical, so while I respect their private views, I wish I personally knew someone who appreciates Music, with a captial 'm.'

    Whilst I do appreciate some pop music, I would never put it on the same level as CM for the reasons I gave at the beginning - also I know the amount of hard work, and the supreme talent that is needed to perform classical music properly - years of training and study are recquired to become a fine musician. With pop, all that is needed is a pretty face and a synthesiser.

    There's joy in listening to works which have transcended time, but there is also something to be said for living in the times and watching (or rather, listening to) history as it develops.

    That doesn't mean just pop! - so-called serious music is still being wtitten. Truly great music is timeless. I personally doubt that much of today's pop or 'serious' music will be around in two hundred years time.

    I disagree with the all-encompassing condemnation of compilations. While they are unsatisfying and even irritating to those who have been immersed in cm, they can be helpful for "beginners" who are yet unfamiliar with the "terrain."

    I agree


    ------------------
    'Man know thyself'



    [This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-12-2001).]
    'Man know thyself'

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Peter:
      Nothing in pop can match the power or expression of a symphony orchestra - the range of sounds is infinite. You never tire of listening to a great piece of music, as the more you listen the more you discover.

      I would say the multiple cannon salute with an accompanying descending scale on the guitars that ends AC/DC's concert finale 'For Those About to Rock We Salute You' is pure classical music, in the tradition of Wellington's Victory and the 1812 Overture. I would say AC/DC's use of cannons is considerably superior in effect musically to Tchaikovsky's, and considerably more powerfull, though if they adopted Beethoven's seemingly endless cannon and musket onslaught, now that would be SOME rock'n'roll finale!

      In addition I would say many of Kate Bush's songs for solo voice and piano are musically superior to many an overwraught Romantic lied!!

      ------------------
      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

      [This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-12-2001).]
      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

      Comment


        #4
        Originally posted by Peter:
        With pop, all that is needed is a pretty face and a synthesiser.
        You'd call Rick Wakeman pretty?? Must be the beard.

        ------------------
        PDG (Peter)

        Comment


          #5
          Originally posted by PDG:
          You'd call Rick Wakeman pretty?? Must be the beard.

          You know what I mean!!!

          ------------------
          'Man know thyself'
          'Man know thyself'

          Comment


            #6
            What do you think of the notion that pure beauty is apart from emotion? That a truly engaging piece induces the listener to wander amongst the phrase in a meditative state. Or is beauty, by definition related to emotion? I wouldn't say that more complex emotion is more...how should I put this...admirable. Pop and various world music involve strong beats which evoke, if not complex emotion, emotion of comparable intensity. Less may be more. Less complexity, but not missing musicality.

            Lack of instrumental (wordless) sections is a major loss in pop; no longer are you allowed to paint your own mental pictures, the artist paints for you and sometimes that's not at all impressive. Mainstream music in the mid twentieth century wasn't yet completely lyric oriented, but is it just me, or are people's attention spans decreasing? People have told me that they don't listen to music in other languages since they can't "understand" them. Lengths of works have shortened significantly and speed is key. Everything nowadays is so compressed and compact; we seem to be accelerating toward a scintillating burnout, a grand burst of activity or some such.

            The sheer bulk is overwhelming, what with numerous labels signing dozens of performers in search of a gem. There's a profusion of one-hit wonders, few of which even survive for a month. Could it have anything to do with the change in musical audience (possibly masses v. elite?)? Composers used to have patrons, but with modern radio, file trading, and consumerism, proliferation is so much easier. Speaking of proliferation, for the longest time, I couldn't stand the opening bars of the Fifth, it'd been so overplayed in films and ads. Hmmm, I might have even resented "them" for not allowing me to form a genuine first impression.

            Tangent: Cage's "4'33"--music, art or both? Since there's no sound, or only ambient sound.

            Comment


              #7
              Jin, My interest in classical stems from a desire to understand the history, roots and development of music straight across the board. There is some pop music that is quite good, conversely, some that is very bad.
              Yes, some of today's music has been watered down, intent on dumbing down the message, the more accessible, the more it sells. Did you know grunge music came about because ppl were sick and tired of paying top dollar to see and hear better musicianship?
              Considering the amount of time it takes to develop the chops to play complex music, is it any wonder, in our age of technology, electronics, hungry corporate recording industry moguls, incessant distractions, the desire for instant gratification, that we don't hear more extraordinary talent over the airwaves? Classical art represents that of a slower paced era... a time when ppl traveled by horse-drawn carriages, their only source of sonic pleasure was live music, operas and plays instead of today's motion picture films....and it also epitomizes the finest musical tradition of
              Europe, built on a solid foundation over the course of centuries.

              I've traveled around various music rooms on the net, and have found that for the most part, the regulars that congregate within think that THEIR music is the only kind worth listening to and discussing, and just about everything else, falls fairly short of the mark.

              As far as I'm concerned, I try not to get too enmeshed in all that, my ears are open and well trained, and i can certainly discern the substantial from the trivial in any given genre.~

              Comment


                #8
                Originally posted by ~Leslie:
                Considering the amount of time it takes to develop the chops to play complex music, is it any wonder, in our age of technology, electronics, hungry corporate recording industry moguls, incessant distractions, the desire for instant gratification, that we don't hear more extraordinary talent over the airwaves?
                The desire for new music was just as great in B's day - the Viennese were an insatiable lot and also flippant - here today gone tommorow. This was B's main complaint about the Viennese, and the reason for his desire to leave on many occasions. I think the notion of pop music as a 20th century phenomena is wrong - there has always been 'popular' music, dating back at least to the greeks. If you look at the music over the ages that was produced for purely commercial reasons, most of it is consigned to oblivion - the best has survived such as Rossini and Johann Strauss, but no one today could seriously make a case for Rossini being Beethoven's equal as a composer.
                In making my points about CM and pop, I don't seek to denegrate pop in any way - it is important and always has been in our culture, everyone has the right to listen to what they like .

                ------------------
                'Man know thyself'
                'Man know thyself'

                Comment


                  #9
                  [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:
                  What do you think of the notion that pure beauty is apart from emotion? That a truly engaging piece induces the listener to wander amongst the phrase in a meditative state. Or is beauty, by definition related to emotion? I wouldn't say that more complex emotion is more...how should I put this...admirable. Pop and various world music involve strong beats which evoke, if not complex emotion, emotion of comparable intensity. Less may be more. Less complexity, but not missing musicality.

                  I wouldn't say that emotion is beauty; rage is an emotion, but it certainly isn't beautiful. It is the other way round - beauty evokes certain emotions within us. My point about the emotions in great CM (because there is bad CM as well!!) is thay they are on a different level to those evoked by pop. The incessant beat of pop goes straight to the most primitive part of the brain - that which controls sexual desire. The trance like state enduced by many tribes through dancing to a repetetive beat culminates in sex. It can be scientifically proven that CM stimulates different areas of the brain - this is the reason behind the theory of playing CM to babies!

                  Tangent: Cage's "4'33"--music, art or both? Since there's no sound, or only ambient sound.

                  A con!!

                  ------------------
                  'Man know thyself'
                  'Man know thyself'

                  Comment


                    #10
                    If Cage's 4'33" ran for 15 hours, it would still be preferable to Wagner's Ring Cycle! On an equally serious note, I find the tempo of 4'33" rather hurried - modern interpretations tend to get through it in around 4'22"; at this pace, many of the nuances are lost on the listener. If anything, a more leisurely speed - say 4'51" - gives both listener & performer alike the chance to fully absorb the twists & turns of this charming piece; especially in the middle section - my favourite bit.

                    And here I must wholeheartedly agree with Rod - this work is a knockout on an authentic piano; my Steinway recordings went straight in the bin.

                    ------------------
                    PDG (Peter)

                    [This message has been edited by PDG (edited 05-13-2001).]

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Originally posted by PDG:

                      And here I must wholeheartedly agree with Rod - this work is a knockout on an authentic piano; my Steinway recordings went straight in the bin.

                      Wouldn't a Steinway be contemporary, and thus authentic, with this magnificent piece?!

                      ------------------
                      "If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin
                      http://classicalmusicmayhem.freeforums.org

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Originally posted by Rod:
                        Wouldn't a Steinway be contemporary, and thus authentic, with this magnificent piece?!

                        Absolutely - playing this on a fortepiano would be ludicrous!!!!

                        ------------------
                        'Man know thyself'
                        'Man know thyself'

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Good to see you posting, Jin. I hope you continue to contribute.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            [QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:

                            "Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness. Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European."

                            Agree with you generally. Non European music can sometimes be very good. Try listening to
                            Japanese wooden flute and/or instrumental
                            classical music. Some Japanese music is really excellent stuff - Although I can't stand Japanese VOCAL claasical music.

                            Also happen to like Iranian classical music.
                            It is very stark, but really pretty good.

                            The only music I don't like is Arabic and Chinese music- Just can't stand the stuff.

                            I've lived & worked in several countries in the world, including the Middle East. I took a liking to Iranian music straight away- but Arab music UGH !!. To me it appears repetitous.

                            Also happen to like traditional jazz - especially the blues. So, as you can read.
                            I'm not biased towards Western classical music.
                            One thing I'd like to add: no other music has ever moved me nearly as much as
                            Beethoven's. Nothing else touches one's soul
                            in the manner of some of the slow movements
                            of Beethovens third period music (the slow
                            movements of: the A minor quartet, the Benedictus of the Missa Solemnis, the second movement of piano sonata no. 32 and of course - the slow movement of the ninth symphony) Beethoven is unique. No other
                            music or musician has Beethovenesque qualities.

                            Believe me- I've heard the EROICA- with the
                            aid of an electricity generator- in remote villages, in different parts of the world. Often villagers, who had NEVER heard Western music before (let alone Westrn CLASSICAL music) have sat down beside me spellbound- while those massive chords of the of the Eroica's first movement were hammered (should I say "thundered") out. Villagers have often asked me what this music was and
                            have requested that I should repeat it for them a second and a third time. This has never happened with any other music.

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Hi all,

                              For the final say on all this Pop vs. Classical debate, I submit the following link where a "Paul" cogently extolls the merits of Classical as out-weighing Pop. After all - a "burrito" is still a burrito no matter how you slice it and a gourmet meal in Paris is, well, a gourmet meal in Paris.
                              http://www.salon.com/june97/entertai...al8970627.html

                              Follow the link to his next letter where he challenges his rival's assertion that Classical music is sex-less. His analogy of the "8-foot dominitrix"(Classical) in front a "troop of feckless boy scouts"(Pop) is hilarious!

                              And don't get me wrong -- I enjoy a burrito myself once in awhile, but the stuff can get old very fast especially when you hear it blaring out at you everywhere you go: malls, bookstores, work-place, theatres, coffee-shops, car stereos, neighbors...JESUS! Take a break ah-ready!

                              And it should be no surprise who really is the more open-minded of the two groups -- Classical-lovers or Pop-lovers. The vast majority of Classical-lovers also listen to other forms of music including some Pop, whereas the vast majority of Pop-lovers don't give a rat's behind about Classical or anything close to it. So whose more narrow-minded? The Britney Spears/Limp Bisket fan who gives the middle-finger to all things Beethoven or the Beethoven fan who occasionally dabbles in Pop? End of discussion.



                              [This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-22-2001).]

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