Lied WoO 118 -- 9th symphony melody!!!

[euphony131]

Hi,

There's a Beethoven song entitled, "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten -- Gegelibe" that has a melody (or is it theme? Motif? I always get them mixed up) from the 9th Symphony; it happens in the second part ("Gegenliebe" or Love Returned) and it's really OBVIOUS. The song was written in 1794 or `95. Isn't this the earliest work where the 9th symphony is presaged?

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi,

There's a Beethoven song entitled, "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten -- Gegelibe" that has a melody (or is it theme? Motif? I always get them mixed up) from the 9th Symphony; it happens in the second part ("Gegenliebe" or Love Returned) and it's really OBVIOUS. The song was written in 1794 or `95. Isn't this the earliest work where the 9th symphony is presaged?

Well Gegenliebe presages the Choral fantasy which presages the Ode to Joy theme, so yes it can be construed as the Odes first 'incantation'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi,

There's a Beethoven song entitled, "Seufzer eines Ungeliebten -- Gegelibe" that has a melody (or is it theme? Motif? I always get them mixed up) from the 9th Symphony; it happens in the second part ("Gegenliebe" or Love Returned) and it's really OBVIOUS. The song was written in 1794 or `95. Isn't this the earliest work where the 9th symphony is presaged?

Dear Euphony131;

Beethoven will later use that theme from Gegenliebe in his Choral Fantasy (opus 80), not the 9th Symphony!

Beethoven will "presage" the melody of "Ode to Joy" in his overture King Stephen.


Hofrat

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Dear Euphony131;

Beethoven will later use that theme from Gegenliebe in his Choral Fantasy (opus 80), not the 9th Symphony!

Beethoven will "presage" the melody of "Ode to Joy" in his overture King Stephen.


Hofrat

I make the connection with Choral Fantasy above but your connection with the Overture is new to me and I suspect everyone else! There is a logical connection with the Fantasy - both are choral works, and the theme is far closer to the Ode than anything I have heard in the Overture.



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[Hofrat]

Originally posted by Rod:
I make the connection with Choral Fantasy above but your connection with the Overture is new to me and I suspect everyone else! There is a logical connection with the Fantasy - both are choral works, and the theme is far closer to the Ode than anything I have heard in the Overture.

Rod;

Just listen to the overture! You can not miss it. It is the second theme in the overture proper. If you have a Eulenburg pocket score of the King Stephen overture, it starts on page 16.


Hofrat

[Michael]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Rod;

Just listen to the overture! You can not miss it. It is the second theme in the overture proper. If you have a Eulenburg pocket score of the King Stephen overture, it starts on page 16.

Hofrat

You're quite right. It is not the straight version of the "Ode to Joy" tune but as it appears much later on in the last movement of the Ninth, where the choir uses a variation of it as the basis for a double fugue. I never noticed it before!

Michael

[Rod]

Originally posted by Hofrat:
Rod;

Just listen to the overture! You can not miss it. It is the second theme in the overture proper. If you have a Eulenburg pocket score of the King Stephen overture, it starts on page 16.

Hofrat

Well I just listened to my most excellent recording of the Overture by the Hanover Band, the same on I've been listening to for well over ten years. I think I can just about understand your point but with respect this in no way compares to the similarity of the ode theme proper to that found in the the earlier Fantasy and Leid. I suggest to deny these as influencing sources in favour of the Overture is taking things a little too far.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-13-2006).]