Who has the fastest 7th?

[euphony131]

B's 7th symphony, 4th movement: Allego con brio -- that estatic, Bacchanalian eruption! Always been curious to hear the FASTEST recorded version of that movement. Does anyone know whose interpretation is the most frenzied?

The more conservative conductors seem to shy away from the the no-holds-bar "adrenaline" in that movement, prefering to play it safe and even-keeled. But me like danger! Whose is the most "dangerous"?

[Mako]

I only have the Berlin Philharmonic and von Karajan performing the 7th. Wouldn't say it was too frenetic.

[Kevin]

Originally posted by euphony131:
B's 7th symphony, 4th movement: Allego con brio -- that estatic, Bacchanalian eruption! Always been curious to hear the FASTEST recorded version of that movement. Does anyone know whose interpretation is the most frenzied?

The more conservative conductors seem to shy away from the the no-holds-bar "adrenaline" in that movement, prefering to play it safe and even-keeled. But me like danger! Whose is the most "dangerous"?

Try Pierre Monteux with the LSO for one of the fastest 4th movements. However, Kleiber with the VPO is probably the best.

[euphony131]

Hi Kevin and Mako,

Yeah, I dig Kleiber's too, and I also have Von Karajan -- his 1963 cycle. And though overall I lean towards David Zinman's, I'm not sure who I'd pick for that particular movement. Zinman actually plays that part slower than Von Karajan. Contrary to popular belief, not EVERYTHING by Zinman is faster than his predecessors.

So Pierre Monteux, eh? Hmmmm.... I'll have to check it out.

What I'd just die to hear is that movement played at whirlwind speed -- just ALL-OUT, FULL-BORE MANIA! A piece like that just begs to be UNLEASHED. Grrrrr...

[Mako]

Euphony,

Just bought a set by The Academy of Ancient Music conducted by Christopher Hogwood. Ancient Music! Perish the thought! Anyway, the set is pretty standard and the 7th is about the same speed if not slower than Karajan. Good luck in the search!

[Kevin]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi Kevin and Mako,

Yeah, I dig Kleiber's too, and I also have Von Karajan -- his 1963 cycle. And though overall I lean towards David Zinman's, I'm not sure who I'd pick for that particular movement. Zinman actually plays that part slower than Von Karajan. Contrary to popular belief, not EVERYTHING by Zinman is faster than his predecessors.

So Pierre Monteux, eh? Hmmmm.... I'll have to check it out.

What I'd just die to hear is that movement played at whirlwind speed -- just ALL-OUT, FULL-BORE MANIA! A piece like that just begs to be UNLEASHED. Grrrrr...

Hello Euphony,

If speed in the 4th movement is what you want then definitly listen to Monteux with the LSO. You get three other symphonies in the set including a great 5th. How can you lose?

[Rod]

All this chat is interesting but rather perhaps pointless unless you also give the timings by the clock, this is the only way we can really compare without actually hearing the piece in question. Also you must obviously say if the repeat is observed.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[euphony131]

Originally posted by Rod:
All this chat is interesting but rather perhaps pointless unless you also give the timings by the clock, this is the only way we can really compare without actually hearing the piece in question. Also you must obviously say if the repeat is observed.

Rod

Point taken, Rod. That brings to mind, another question -- Why are "repeats" so often considered to be optional? Did not B. and other composers give details on whether to repeat or not? And how exactly would you define a "repeat"? Just the replaying of a particular passage and nothing more?

[Peter]

Originally posted by euphony131:

Point taken, Rod. That brings to mind, another question -- Why are "repeats" so often considered to be optional? Did not B. and other composers give details on whether to repeat or not? And how exactly would you define a "repeat"? Just the replaying of a particular passage and nothing more?

The repeat serves a very important function in creating the right structure - as Beethoven is considered the greatest master of this, I'm astonished that most conductors take the liberties they do - B is very specific about repeats - we know when he doesn't want the exposition repeated (Razumovsky no.1 1st movement for example), so why ignore the repeats in the Eroica or the 5th Symphony as is usual?

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'Man know thyself'

[Rod]

Originally posted by euphony131:

Point taken, Rod. That brings to mind, another question -- Why are "repeats" so often considered to be optional? Did not B. and other composers give details on whether to repeat or not? And how exactly would you define a "repeat"? Just the replaying of a particular passage and nothing more?

This is an example of the contempt performers have for their audience, and (I presume latently) the music. I suppose they think we're too thick to notice. Even 'authentic' performers ommit repeats on occasion! With recordings it may have been forgiveable in the days of vinyl, where space is limited, but there's no excuse with cd format. If the performer thinks the movement is too long and tedious if the repeat is observed then they are playing it incorrectly - the classic example being the scherzo of the 'Archduke', which is played so ponderously slow that the trio repeat is never observed lest the audience fall asleep in the process!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-20-2001).]

[chrisg]

What I'd just die to hear is that movement played at whirlwind speed -- just ALL-OUT, FULL-BORE MANIA! A piece like that just begs to be UNLEASHED. Grrrrr...

I'm still looking too. Some come close though.

With repeat:

Bruggen, 7:58. If you don't mind HIP, this just might be the one for you. As flat out as they come in the finale, but a tad slow in the 1st movement (14:42).

Harnoncourt, 8:14: The best of his set, great from start to finish. Lean and mean.

Zinman, 8:30: Well, it's pretty fast anyway. Lean with no mean, no punch, just plain dull.

Mackerras, 8:34: Another great performance, with a powerhouse finale. His first movement is also very fast (12:46 w/repeat), but the rhythm doesn't hold together as well as C. Kleiber or Harnoncourt.

Carlos Kleiber, 8:36: A classic. As good as the finale is, I find myself wishing for just a little more bang.

Without Repeat (how could they do that!)

Karajan '62, 6:30.

Furtwangler '43, 6:26: Starts out fairly slowly, but in typical WF fashion, speeds are all over the place. By the end, the BPO is scrambling to keep up. Allowances have to be made for the 1943 live recording quality, but this is a hoot.

Colin Davis / RPO '61, 6:52: Picks up steam as it goes and really packs a punch. Besides omitting the repeats, the only thing I don't like about this recording is the plodding tempo for the trio of the scherzo.

If only they'd let me conduct.

Chris

[Kevin]

Originally posted by chrisg:
What I'd just die to hear is that movement played at whirlwind speed -- just ALL-OUT, FULL-BORE MANIA! A piece like that just begs to be UNLEASHED. Grrrrr...

I'm still looking too. Some come close though.

With repeat:

Bruggen, 7:58. If you don't mind HIP, this just might be the one for you. As flat out as they come in the finale, but a tad slow in the 1st movement (14:42).

Harnoncourt, 8:14: The best of his set, great from start to finish. Lean and mean.

Zinman, 8:30: Well, it's pretty fast anyway. Lean with no mean, no punch, just plain dull.

Mackerras, 8:34: Another great performance, with a powerhouse finale. His first movement is also very fast (12:46 w/repeat), but the rhythm doesn't hold together as well as C. Kleiber or Harnoncourt.

Carlos Kleiber, 8:36: A classic. As good as the finale is, I find myself wishing for just a little more bang.

Without Repeat (how could they do that!)

Karajan '62, 6:30.

Furtwangler '43, 6:26: Starts out fairly slowly, but in typical WF fashion, speeds are all over the place. By the end, the BPO is scrambling to keep up. Allowances have to be made for the 1943 live recording quality, but this is a hoot.

Colin Davis / RPO '61, 6:52: Picks up steam as it goes and really packs a punch. Besides omitting the repeats, the only thing I don't like about this recording is the plodding tempo for the trio of the scherzo.

If only they'd let me conduct.

Chris

Monteux in '61 with the LSO completes the 4th movement at 6:30. It is a seismic, blistering performance.

[chrisg]

Monteux in '61 with the LSO completes the 4th movement at 6:30. It is a seismic, blistering performance.

OK Kevin, but how are the horns? Too many conductors bury them as something to fill out the texture. I want them to knock me out of my chair.

cg

[This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 01-21-2001).]

[Rod]

Originally posted by chrisg:
Monteux in '61 with the LSO completes the 4th movement at 6:30. It is a seismic, blistering performance.

OK Kevin, but how are the horns? Too many conductors bury them as something to fill out the texture. I want them to knock me out of my chair.

cg

This is a big problem with Beethoven performances in general, the addage that the horn should be seen and not heard simply does not apply to Beethoven. If I was directing, I'd have the (natural, of course) horn players play with 'bells' turned forward to get a more prominent sound. I've seen old painting of horn players holding their instrument (no childish giggling here please!) in a much different manner to what it done today.

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-22-2001).]

[Kevin]

Originally posted by chrisg:
Monteux in '61 with the LSO completes the 4th movement at 6:30. It is a seismic, blistering performance.

OK Kevin, but how are the horns? Too many conductors bury them as something to fill out the texture. I want them to knock me out of my chair.

cg

Your right, of course. The horns are good, but not great. Kleiber with the VPO has better sound from the brass. With Monteux I simply an pointing out the speed which goes back to Euphony's original question. Your survey is quite good on speeds and Papa Monteux's is an excellent performance that provides velocity in the 4th movement comparable to Von Karajan's speed.
Is the recording by Sir Colin Davis still available?

More than any other Beethoven symphony, I find the 7th varies greatly in recorded performance quality within the 4 movements.

This message has been edited by chrisg (edited 01-21-2001).]