"What would it take to surpass The Great Beethoven?"

[18-ceo]

That's my goal, and I would like to have contact with anyone who has indepth idea's on the man's mind and his love, Nature!

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The Future is very Bright,because the Universe and Stars are in my sight!!

[Peter]

I think 'God' answers both your questions !

The music itself is the true revelation of Beethoven's mind and spirit, however many have written about it from Berlioz to Tovey.

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'Man know thyself'

[euphony131]

What really blows me away is how inexhaustible B's music is. You find yourself returning to it again and again and always gleaning something NEW.

Yesterday, I listened to the eerie and mystical opening mvt. of Opus 131 like 5 times in a row and each time it seem to transform. I mean the DEPTH of it...it has no bottom. It's almost scary. If that makes sense.

[euphony131]

Wanted to elaborate a little on what I said. For me, his greatest music seems to "re-compose" itself as it plays. In this way, it's truly ALIVE. You can't find a better example than his Late String Quartets, with the possible exception of Sonata #29 (The Hammerklavier) and it's amazing Adagio sostuneto and Fugue.

I have not heard any other composer who can reach so far into a listener. Though of course there's JS Bach and he's definitely got the "celestial perfection" down, but you seldom hear any real "STRUGGLE" in his music.

In short, you just can't surpass B.

[robert newman]

'Beethoven's ok- but he's no Mozart. He's not even a Michael Haydn!

The above statement appears in a Mozart website and was posted only a few days ago. Perhaps the best proof this is wrong is that I'm one of millions of people who've escaped from making Mozart the centre of my musical universe. In fact, it seems few people arrive at Mozart. It's generally where they begin.

Such a thing is not bad. Primary schools have their place, after all. But the sophistication of a Mozart work almost never transcends the form and the conventions within which it is set. The 'safeness' of Mozart is a music in thermaldahide. Beethoven's talent erupted and completely transformed music. I personally believe that Beethoven is by any fair reckoning the greater composer than either Michael Haydn or Mozart.

[Alex OV]

Originally posted by robert newman:

'Beethoven's ok- but he's no Mozart. He's not even a Michael Haydn!

The above statement appears in a Mozart website and was posted only a few days ago. Perhaps the best proof this is wrong is that I'm one of millions of people who've escaped from making Mozart the centre of my musical universe. In fact, it seems few people arrive at Mozart. It's generally where they begin.

Such a thing is not bad. Primary schools have their place, after all. But the sophistication of a Mozart work almost never transcends the form and the conventions within which it is set. The 'safeness' of Mozart is a music in thermaldahide. Beethoven's talent erupted and completely transformed music. I personally believe that Beethoven is by any fair reckoning the greater composer than either Michael Haydn or Mozart.

Can someone please tell me who is Michael Haydn? When I was growing up, we were taught about the great Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and JOSEPH Haydn. Who is Michael Haydn?

[Chris]

Can someone please tell me who is Michael Haydn? When I was growing up, we were taught about the great Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Schubert and JOSEPH Haydn. Who is Michael Haydn?

Michael Haydn was the younger brother of "the" Haydn. He was also a composer. He was a friend of Mozart, who thought very well of his work.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 05-19-2006).]

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Wanted to elaborate a little on what I said. For me, his greatest music seems to "re-compose" itself as it plays. In this way, it's truly ALIVE. You can't find a better example than his Late String Quartets, with the possible exception of Sonata #29 (The Hammerklavier) and it's amazing Adagio sostuneto and Fugue.

I have not heard any other composer who can reach so far into a listener. Though of course there's JS Bach and he's definitely got the "celestial perfection" down, but you seldom hear any real "STRUGGLE" in his music.

In short, you just can't surpass B.

What you say of Bach may be true of the instrumental music, but there is much struggle of the soul in the church music, from arias to choruses and even on occasion the chorales. The soul's struggle was Bach's overall subject in his religious music. Some of the large choruses such as the Crucifixus and the others from the B Minor Mass are imbued with struggle.

[Sorrano]

Originally posted by Chaszz:

What you say of Bach may be true of the instrumental music, but there is much struggle of the soul in the church music, from arias to choruses and even on occasion the chorales. The soul's struggle was Bach's overall subject in his religious music. Some of the large choruses such as the Crucifixus and the others from the B Minor Mass are imbued with struggle.

Also, some of the harmonic progressions and intervallic disposition between notes (in the religious music) often conote struggle, but not in the "romantic" terms that we are used to. Bach's pathos are very much different from Beethoven's and Tchaikowsky's. But, nevertheless, they are there.

[Chaszz]

Originally posted by Sorrano:
Also, some of the harmonic progressions and intervallic disposition between notes (in the religious music) often conote struggle, but not in the "romantic" terms that we are used to. Bach's pathos are very much different from Beethoven's and Tchaikowsky's. But, nevertheless, they are there.

I also feel like taking back my agreement with the 'celestial' nature of the instrumental music. Although a lot of it is certainly joyful and/or mathematically resplendent, there is plenty of struggle and tragic outlook in some of it. For instance, the overwhelming Chaconne from the 2nd Violin Partita, which produces a climax and a feeling of catharsis exactly like that of tragic drama...and actually does it twice! Plus many of the slow movements from the concertos are of this nature, though on a lesser scale.


[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited 05-20-2006).]

[robert newman]

Beethoven, especially in his later works (and I am no expert on him or his music) seems to be striving for absolute beauty. I don't know if it's known to every Beethoven lover but I've been personally amazed and thrilled recently at his use of trills, especially in the later piano sonatas. These are astounding works and are surely some of the greatest music ever composed by anyone. There are some awesome things in the 'Hammerklavier' that I'm only just beginning to appreciate. It doesn't surprise me that the question is asked of what it would take to surpass Beethoven. I have no answer. All we can do is be humbled.

[Peter]

Originally posted by robert newman:

Beethoven, especially in his later works (and I am no expert on him or his music) seems to be striving for absolute beauty. I don't know if it's known to every Beethoven lover but I've been personally amazed and thrilled recently at his use of trills, especially in the later piano sonatas. These are astounding works and are surely some of the greatest music ever composed by anyone. There are some awesome things in the 'Hammerklavier' that I'm only just beginning to appreciate. It doesn't surprise me that the question is asked of what it would take to surpass Beethoven. I have no answer. All we can do is be humbled.

Yes the use of trills as a means of texture rather than decoration is quite characteristic of late Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

[18-ceo]

Originally posted by Peter:
I think 'God' answers both your questions !

The music itself is the true revelation of Beethoven's mind and spirit, however many have written about it from Berlioz to Tovey.

A great man once said " What lives after the death is the immortal personality" I've been doing investigations and the ideas of the great minds live! So how would you go about reviving the quilty of a mind like His?

[18-ceo]

Originally posted by euphony131:
What really blows me away is how inexhaustible B's music is. You find yourself returning to it again and again and always gleaning something NEW.

Yesterday, I listened to the eerie and mystical opening mvt. of Opus 131 like 5 times in a row and each time it seem to transform. I mean the DEPTH of it...it has no bottom. It's almost scary. If that makes sense.

What will help understand This man's music on a higher level is developing the mind to understanding higher ideas. Like, Plato, Choral work, Organizing people on way this form of music is the highest and every other, rap, country, rock, whatever, is garbage! Because these other form of music don't have the universal quality of A Beethoven, Mozart, or Bach!

[18-ceo]

Originally posted by euphony131:
Wanted to elaborate a little on what I said. For me, his greatest music seems to "re-compose" itself as it plays. In this way, it's truly ALIVE. You can't find a better example than his Late String Quartets, with the possible exception of Sonata #29 (The Hammerklavier) and it's amazing Adagio sostuneto and Fugue.

I have not heard any other composer who can reach so far into a listener. Though of course there's JS Bach and he's definitely got the "celestial perfection" down, but you seldom hear any real "STRUGGLE" in his music.

In short, you just can't surpass B.

I was reading B's letter's and it's funny, because Nature to him was like his wife. And as a Stateman I can really understand the love of all of thee Creator Wonder's!