music software has made unbelievable leaps...

[Preston]

Are there any members of the forum that are as fascinated by the musical software of today. Such as, VSL, East/West, Garritan, etc.- the list really could go on for a long time! Score writers and midi editors, such as Rosegarden, Finale, Sibelius, etc.

When I really think about it, the thought is amazing to me what technology can be. It is really quite unbelievable.

For those not to familiar, here is a great example from a company I do not like because of their expensive, greedy, and corrupt pricing. Though, they are the best when it comes to classical, at least from what I understand.

Here is an .mp3 file of Ravel's Bolero, made entirely with computer software:
http://vsl.co.at/downloader.asp?file...rosserSaal.mp3

Quite amazing.

Here is the a link to an explanation of the history of Bolero and the how they used the software to make it possible:

http://vsl.co.at/en/65/71/1879/1531.vsl#

[Michael]

Only for musical software, we might not have Paul McCartney's "classical" works. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Michael

Only for musical software, we might not have Paul McCartney's "classical" works. Not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing.

NPR, has played several of Paul McCartney's classical works. I was surprised the first time I heard his name mentioned on NPR's Music Through the Night.

Michael, I think you will like this piece of music software a lot, - if you do not know it already exists?

http://www.soundsonline.com/product....oductid=EW-170

Be sure to check out the link, you might be pleasantly surpised!

All The Best,
Preston

[Michael]

Most interesting. Beatles but not Beatles. I'll stick with the originals, thanks.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Michael

Most interesting. Beatles but not Beatles. I'll stick with the originals, thanks.

I thought you may find it interesting- Beatles in a box, . Did you read the website thoroughly?

They went to extremes to capture the correct sounds, etc. Using the exact same instruments, effects, etc. It mentioned that some of the guitars they used cost over $200,000!

You should watch some of the tutorial videos if you have the time, and want too.

[Preston]

Well, about three weeks ago I heard about VSL new discounted pricing. It made me so sick that I sent the sales department an email. 50% off- it would seem good- if the original price wasn't $25,000 for the full the complete collection!

Either way, here is what happened:
(Please excuse any language)

me:
This company's pricing is the most greedy, ridiculous, corrupt, etc.- pricing of any VSTi library I could almost ever imagine. I truly, hope, that VSL changes their prices or goes completely bankrupt- which I highly doubt will happen.

As an example- I am about to buy a houseboat, do you know how much that cost? $25,000- the same price as buying all of your great yet highly overpriced libraries. Why cater only to the rich?

Oh, I forget, you came out with VSL SE and SE+. Which both are a load of bullshit when compared to the rest of the libraries.

I would almost be sorry for venting on VSL because of their dedication to good software, but am not by any means.

Anyway, I hope that libraries come out which beat the living shit out of VSL and then hopefully, OH so hopefully- VSL goes bankrupt!

All the hard work this greedy company has put into their libraries- I hope goes down the drain with the rest of the corrupt bullshit.

Preston


VSL:
Hello Preston,

Thank you for your email.
I'm very sorry to hear that you find our pricing to be absurd.

I wonder whether you noticed the price drop that we recently had on all our products, especially on our product bundles...
For example, the Vienna Super Package Full Library (includes ALL our DVD products) now costs USD 12,480 instead of the old price of USD 21,445! This is less than half of the USD 25,000 that you expected all our DVD Collections to cost.
You can compare all old and new prices here:
http://vsl.co.at/en/65/71/1745/1880/1532.htm
Don't you agree that USD 8,965 (more than 40% of the old price) is a quite noticeable price drop?

Besides, we're really trying to offer products for the smaller wallet as well, for example the Special Edition and Special Edition PLUS that you mentioned. Of course these products cannot offer the same amount of samples than their bigger brothers, by design - as a economy-priced BMW must have some disadvantages compared to its big, fully-featured and expensive brother... However the quality of the samples of our Special Editions is exactly the same than with the bigger products, only the number of articulations is reduced!
Don't you think this is really fair for customers who don't want to spend a lot of money?

Also, we're offering customers who purchased our Special Editions discounts when upgrading to the BIG Vienna Instruments DVD Collections (Full Library), depending on how many samples they already licensed with the Special Edition they have. Here's a link that explains our upgrade discounts:
http://vsl.co.at/en/211/1343/1346/961.vsl
Don't you think this is a fair approach for customers who want to upgrade?

Please feel free to contact me if you've got any further questions or comments regarding our products and their pricing.
Kind regards from Vienna,


me:
Stefan, first let me say, why would you even begin to thank me for going off on the absurd pricing of VSL's libraries? And then, why "in the world" do you feel very sorry that I find your pricing to be ABSURD- which it is?

Yes, I have seen the link to the price drop on the homepage of VSL. I clicked on it and looked at some of the new pricing. Though, to be honest- when I first saw the price drop I was hoping for something that people who do not have $10,000, so to say, sitting around. Which is very rare where I live (America), when concerning the majority. People who have that kind of money almost freely available to them are considered somewhat wealthy- which is a rarity here. I wonder if your company realizes this? It may seem odd to VSL, though, people who make a great amount of money- say around $200,000 (doctors, lawyers (if they are lucky), businessman, dentists, etc.- the minority)- first get taxed, then have numerous other expenses. Such as, all kind of insurance, medical bills, payments, children to be taken care of, college for their children, houses, cars, etc., etc., etc. So by the time that money is used not many can freely give away $12,480- by any means.

Yes, I agree that 40% is a NOTICEABLE drop. Though, do you agree that if someone has $1,000,000- 50% is a noticeable drop? Of course. Though the price of $500,000 is still a large sum.

Well, the articulations are what make great music. What if Beethoven didn't have access to articulations!!! So, when you take a lot of articulations- you take control and precision. NO, I do not, by any means think that is fair. That is the opposite of fair- it is unfair.

It may be the thought of a fair approach, but, then all fairness is ruined by the pricing!

Have you seen the East/West specials for their anniversary? They are offering 50% off their complete composers edition. Which, can now be purchased for around $1000, not $12,500 (which for the hundred of millions of people in America is a very very big difference). And, it comes with your choice of 7 fully-loaded Play 2.0 VSTi's. Very helpful they are about pricing.

Anyway, to say the same thing again, I hope VSL lowers their pricing substantially or goes bankrupt. Why not try it? Make one of your best standard and extended libraries for a honest price- then- see how many people buy. Perhaps you will be amazed- perhaps not.

------------------------------------------------

And that was it. Yes, I was pretty upset, .

[Chris]

I find their pricing very reasonable, really.

[Preston]

I admit they are the best. VSL samples are of such precision and technique, etc. it is mind blowing. VSL uses the best instruments, musicians, recording techniques, sound halls, etc. It is an unbelievable process.

Though, I cannot agree with you, at all, that their pricing is reasonable. I make around $15,000 a year- not much, when compared with some others. If I started working full-time, I would make around what VSL original price was for the complete collection, a year. I saved up for years to get my new computer. It seems somewhat ridiculous that VSL Complete would cost around 4 new high-quality computers.

Either way, we must agree to disagree.

[Chris]

As you pointed out, they use the best in producing their product. That is very expensive. To pay the musicians, maintain the facilities and equipment, pay the programmers and Q/A people, etc. requires a lot of money.

"I can't afford it" is not cause for claiming something is too expensive. First of all, it's not like this software is a necessity. Second of all, it's not like you don't have other options that are cheaper. Sure they are not as good, but that's how it is with anything. A new Lamborghini Murciélago will set you back a few hundred grand, but would you make the claim that that is an unreasonable price because you can't afford it or because it is a lot more expensive than other cars? No - it's a high-end product for people who can afford to pay for it. They set their prices at whatever will yield maximum profit.

[Preston]

Originally Posted by Chris

They set their prices at whatever will yield maximum profit.

And, that is the problem with this world. Democracy, relies on greed and corruption, you see. That is what keeps it going. The very thing, at least America, stands for- freedom- will be the very thing that does it in- IMO.

Though, I do wonder seeing as the majority, at least to my mind, cannot afford things of such nature, if VSL should lower their prices substantially, and then would more people buy?

Also, my claim is not, "I can't afford" so it is to expensive. That would be all too childish. I can't afford a Ferrari, but I could really care less. One thing, is the fact that it is a VSTi software that could give people who do not have money the chance to learn more about the orchestra, and they wipe out any chance of that. Think of the children- not trying to sound cliche', but seriously.

In short, IMO, it is a company filled with greed.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Preston

And, that is the problem with this world. Democracy, relies on greed and corruption, you see. That is what keeps it going. The very thing, at least America, stands for- freedom- will be the very thing that does it in- IMO.

It doesn't have anything to do with democracy. A company would be grossly irresponsible to price its product in a way that does not maximize profits.

Though, I do wonder seeing as the majority, at least to my mind, cannot afford things of such nature, if VSL should lower their prices substantially, and then would more people buy?

Yes, more people would buy it, but not enough to make up for the reduction in price. Believe me, they have people whose only job is to figure this stuff out. The fact is, more people would buy it, but not that much more. Because most people don't want to sit there and write music for orchestra, and those that do simply do not have the time to sit there and put all the effort into learning the software and creating realistic-sounding pieces. It's one thing to sit there and churn out a MIDI file, but it's another thing altogether to sit there with VSL and figure out what articulation to use for every single note. It takes a LONG time to make something decent with it. Not to mention, most people would not be willing to invest in the kind of hardware you actually need to take full advantage of VSL.

VSL is not designed and priced for people who just want to mess around or learn about the orchestra. There is cheaper and less complex software for that. It's designed for professional composers and producers who are making an investment in their business. And from that perspective, the price is very reasonable.

And even so, there are very reasonably priced versions for more normal users. Yes, they are less capable, but honestly, you would never use most of those additional features anyway. If you are seriously interested in buying this software, the special edition would probably give you exactly what you need at a price you can afford.

[Preston]

It doesn't have anything to do with democracy. A company would be grossly irresponsible to price its product in a way that does not maximize profits.

Not entirely, the company could be a more liberal minded company. Much like Cockos- who makes Reaper. Instead of having to spend $600 for a sequencer they, from the kindness of their hearts, offer it for $60. Not to mention the FOSS community and their endless efforts towards not just making good software, but offering it for free.

Yes, more people would buy it, but not enough to make up for the reduction in price.

That is hard to believe. What I am saying is companies need to screw maximizing profits! Do something honest for a change!

The fact is, more people would buy it, but not that much more.

I cannot believe that.

VSL is not designed and priced for people who just want to mess around or learn about the orchestra. There is cheaper and less complex software for that. It's designed for professional composers and producers who are making an investment in their business. And from that perspective, the price is very reasonable.

I imagine there are many people, who would love to get their hands on VSL. Are you saying that only rich people are the ones who can make good use of it. Look at the Garritan community, and East/West- both make quite good music- and articulate a lot. There are actually great renders and people who know how to articulate and work with software greatly.

And even so, there are very reasonably priced versions for more normal users. Yes, they are less capable, but honestly, you would never use most of those additional features anyway. If you are seriously interested in buying this software, the special edition would probably give you exactly what you need at a price you can afford.

Yes, but, imagine wanting to render a Beethoven string quartet. No one can render something like that without the full articulations.

--------------------------------
My main point is about- honesty in these big profit companies. They would help a lot of people out better if they were more honest about money and not greedy. I mean this is a fundamental problem in the world- greed in companies- and VSL is a prime example.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Preston

Not entirely, the company could be a more liberal minded company. Much like Cockos- who makes Reaper. Instead of having to spend $600 for a sequencer they, from the kindness of their hearts, offer it for $60. Not to mention the FOSS community and their endless efforts towards not just making good software, but offering it for free.

It isn't out of the kindness of his heart. It's because no one is going to pay $600 for Reaper. Some people make software and plug-ins as a hobby and offer it for free. VSL is not hobby software.

That is hard to believe. What I am saying is companies need to screw maximizing profits! Do something honest for a change!

There is nothing dishonest about maximizing profits. Would you invest in a company that is deliberately crippling its earning potential? I sure wouldn't. Am I being dishonest or greedy because I do not work for my company at half of my current salary? No. I know what my work is worth, and I have set a fair market price for it. If a company is not willing to pay my price, I will sell my services to a company that is. Also, remember that all that money is not simply going into the pockets of a few people. It is invested in the product to make it better in terms of new technology, more jobs, etc.

I imagine there are many people, who would love to get their hands on VSL. Are you saying that only rich people are the ones who can make good use of it.

I am saying that it is not intended for people at all. It is intended for either companies or individuals who make their living by producing music. It is not a luxury to the intended users, it is a tool to help them do their jobs.

Look at the Garritan community, and East/West- both make quite good music- and articulate a lot. There are actually great renders and people who know how to articulate and work with software greatly.

Garritan is a different kind of product. It's like my car example. Would a lot of car guys out there like to have a Lamborghini Murciélago? Sure, but that's not the intended user. You have to decide who your target user is. Are you targeting the extreme high end? If so, your product is going to cost more to produce. VSL is simply a higher end product with more costs and consequently a higher price. Believe me, if they thought reducing the price would gain them enough users to make it worth it, they would. This is specialized software and there is a limited market.

Yes, but, imagine wanting to render a Beethoven string quartet. No one can render something like that without the full articulations.

What articulations in the special edition do you think are missing that you would need to render a Beethoven quartet? The standard stuff is all there.

[Preston]

Chris, we just have different beliefs, ideals, ideas, etc. towards companies, money, greed, etc. I stand by what I said, and you stand by what you said. So, it is probably best we agree to disagree.

[Preston]

Chris, I realized that I never stated the price I thought would be beneficial not only for all of the people but for the company also. When I was saying make the VSL libraries complete for a lower price, I was not saying make it cost the price of GPO! Then the company really probably would go bankrupt (within a matter of hours)! I was thinking of a price that would be more affordable to most (in the countries/continents they offer their product), such as around $5,000-$6000 for the complete. Then have the individual libraries available for purchase around $350-$400. Do you feel something around that pricing would still be good for the company?

The more I think about it the more I realize that the very problem we had with the conversation could have been because you thought I meant lower the price of the complete too substantially? The fault would then be mine, wholly. So I, thoroughly, apologize if that was the case.

[Chris]

Originally Posted by Preston

I was thinking of a price that would be more affordable to most (in the countries/continents they offer their product), such as around $5,000-$6000 for the complete. Then have the individual libraries available for purchase around $350-$400. Do you feel something around that pricing would still be good for the company?

That's not too far from what you have now. The "Vienna Super Package", which contains everything they have ever done, is $6,860, $12,480 if you want all the extended libraries too. But that contains a lot of special stuff that most people will probably never care about. You can get the "Symphonic Cube", which gives you everything in the standard orchestra, plus chamber and solo instruments for only $3,360, $7,470 with all the extended libraries. Looking at the individual libraries, you can get Orchestral Strings I, for example, for $535, $1,120 with all the extended libraries. Plus, keep in mind that that is if you buy direct. You can probably get lower prices going through a third party seller.

In any case, I don't know what setting the prices at the level you suggest would do, because I am not privy to all of the company's private information. All I can tell you is what I told you before - they have people whose entire job is figuring this stuff out. If it would be good for the company they would have done it. If it doesn't make sense to you, you have to consider that there are other factors that you may not have considered. For example, did you know it is possible to actually lose costumers by setting your prices too low? The reason for this is that your price point needs to reflect your quality and target users relative to your competition. If a studio is looking to purchase the best piece of software out there, and your price is too low, they will immediately disregard you, because they figure that at that price, you cannot possibly be the best. If VSL claims to be significantly above their competition, they need to price their product significantly above their competition to attract the users they are targeting. It's not a simple problem, and people study these issues for years in school.

[Preston]

Well the extended libraries, to my mind, are very, very important. While they do not contain the basic articulations they do contain more articulations and very important articulations and playing techniques. I was talking about $350-$400 for the standard and extended libraries.

If it would be good for the company they would have done it.

I have no doubt. Let us keep in mind that the prices were over $25000 for the complete- for many years. That is the very problem, I have been trying to explain. Companies do what is better for the owners and executives of the company, and of course the company itself, because that is where all of the money comes from. I am not saying that the owners do not care for their product or company- they love it, respect it, etc. They just get greedy. Happens all of the time, with so many companies.

Should the best interests for a good, honest, truthful, etc. company not be about offering a product, honestly, such as- helping people and not just the company and the "big names" in the company?

Yes, they have professionals in economics who do study this for years. I agree. Do not be too eager to trust a large profit company. Most of these companies care for the quality of their product, truly, and how much money they can make without sacrificing the quality of the company nor the money of the executives.

Though, until I see statistics I stand by what I have written. Why, because I am convinced that this is a very greedy company. Yes, it may sound naive, seeing as I don't know the precise statistics- yet, I am convinced. If I am proven wrong then, well, so be it.

[Chris]

That's just how business works. You set the price wherever it will yield maximum profit. That isn't greedy, it's a healthy company. If they were sacrificing worker safety for higher profits, for example, that would be irresponsible and wrong.

As I said, currently you can get everything, absolutely everything for $12,480. That's reasonable, considering the vast amount of samples you get with that. But that's EVERYTHING, and you don't need everything. Not even close. Because a lot of those instruments are really for special-use. If what you want is a virtual orchestra, you can get everything you need for about $6000, and that includes all the extended libraries. And that is more than reasonable for a professional piece of software. Really all you need for that is Orchestral Strings I, Orchestral Strings II, Woodwinds I, Brass I, and Percussion. That's about $5000 for the complete standard orchestra. Then maybe you throw some Solo Strings I in there or the Vienna Imperial Piano if you want that. Or the Symphonic Cube will even give you more instruments for around the same price. And again, that's buying direct. You should be able to get lower prices going through a third party seller.

Then you have the Special Edition, which is really the consumer-level product anyway. Or the downloadable instruments, which are a bit more capable, even. And they have many options for bundles, upgrading, etc. So I'd say they are actually pretty accommodating with their pricing.

Personally, if you are interested in aquiring something like this, I'd start saving, but hold off on buying. Technology moves fast, and in some years, I wouldn't be surprised if you could get something that sounds better than VSL does now for a mere fraction of the price. In the meantime, use the cheaper libraries to experiment and compose your pieces.

[Preston]

I accidently deleted this post because I was trying to quote it but accidently hit edit, then went to work. If there is anyway to bring it back that would be good?

[Chris]

And where did you come up with those numbers? Are you aware of their costs? Are you privy to their private financial records? Do you know the direction they are taking with their company? Have you analyzed the market situation leading them to set this pricing? If $6000 is unreasonable for a virtual orchestra, why is $3000 reasonable?

[Preston]

I am not saying those prices are the perfect pricing. I am just saying that they are more reasonable to the masses because they are more affordable.

Particularly, concerning the standard and extended individual libraries.

That is only my opinion.

[Preston]

...unfortunately- Democracy...

I know this is anything but a political forum, so I apologize for writing this. Though, I said the above without any explanation. I fall more along some form of Democratic Socialism- with restrictions on money, corporations, companies, etc. and some censorship- which has yet to be achieved, though, I believe that we are only at the beginning of the study of government, and there is much more to come. I do not at all support "free-for-all" Democracy where almost anything goes and Capitalism reigns.

Sorry, though, I felt I needed to clarify my position.

[Preston]

I have installed the East West Piano libraries, and they sound unbelievable.

Though, I really, really hope desktop (such as, one desktop alone) computer hardware will catch to easily handling samples of this magnitude. Only one microphone position can be loaded if playing in real-time is what I want- which, it is one major thing I want. If 2 or 3 mic. positions are loaded the hard drive cannot keep up. I might should try a SSD drive. Though, I might be able to make some more configurations. When the sustain pedal is pressed sometimes it will begin crackle subtly at 20 voices and other times I can take it up to 300 voices. This is what makes me angry with this library- the fact, that it may be possibly a little buggy on the programming end. That, or I am doing something wrong. Though, to try and achieve a realistic sounding sampled piano, a lot of articulations must be sampled. Then they have to be programmed to work together. It seems there may be some minor programming glitches, at least for now. Hopefully, they will fix them at some point.

Either way, the samples sound great. It is similar, in a way, to owning 4 grand pianos!