The Bernard Herrmann/Alfred Hitchcock collaboration

[Bonn1827]

Many composers, including those for film, have borrowed heavily from "the greats" of classical music (who, indeed, also borrowed heavily from each other). So, it is no surprise to hear very definite influences at play with each work. The hallmark of the composer who rises about the pack is the extent to which he (or she) is able to bring individuality and "that little something extra" (to quote James Mason from "A Star is Born"). Benny Herrmann certainly belongs in that category, IMHO, as do Elmer Bernstein, Korngold, Rosza, Alex North, Mancini, Tiomkin (think of his delicately beautiful score for 'Rio Bravo'!), Steiner, Young - there are many of them - not forgetting Sergei Prokofiev, who wrote for the movies (Eisenstein). I think Howard Shore is one of the prodigious young talents today, John Williams (particularly his score for "Catch Me if You Can") and the consistently outstanding output of Quincy Jones and Dave Grusin. So many wonderful composers......!!

BTW, I think Bernstein's score for "To Kill a Mockingbird" one of the greatest in film history.

[Ed C]

I just watched Torn Curtain last night which was the film about which Hermann fell out with Hitchcock, who wanted a more 'pop' score. Oddly, the score he got was very traditional in sound.

Hermann is magnificent in his sphere, no doubt.

Do you know the Alien films? Listen to the outer space fugato, this comes right out of Hermann.

Oh yeah - I love the Goldsmith Alien score. Even tho he totally stole from Holst's Saturn opening theme

Herrmann's Outer Space suite is great, I never made that connection, huh.

The other Alien scores are not as strong for me, Horner's greatest moment was Wrath of Khan and he's been recycling that sound since then (jk - kind of)

[jamesofedinburgh]

I just watched Torn Curtain last night which was the film about which Hermann fell out with Hitchcock, who wanted a more 'pop' score. Oddly, the score he got was very traditional in sound.

Hermann is magnificent in his sphere, no doubt.

Do you know the Alien films? Listen to the outer space fugato, this comes right out of Hermann.

[Ed C]

I made a techno version of the Psycho main title theme in Feb 2001 on a Playstation One (actually it was just a Playstation back then). The video I made this morning....pretty long production cycle!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XUVib1EalDQ

[Ed C]

Wow I just got back from Vienna! And you'll be there for 12 months? I'll be writing about my visit later. I would love to hear your thoughts about it, we'll have to talk off topic....!

[Bonn1827]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n660xoYQc0Q

Ed, here is a link for a magnificent scene from "A Tree Grows in Brooklyn". The expression on the face of child actor Peggy Ann Garner (Francie) as her father sings, with its overtones of loss and tragedy at dreams unrealized. Unforgettable!! Enjoy.

I've also included a link from the film "Picnic" and the (Moonglow) dance scene (music by George Duning). Surely one of the sultriest scenes in US film history! Josh Logan, the director, was a seasoned Broadway director and he had a perfect sense of the nexus between speech and music. Notice how the ebb and flow of the speaking nicely matches the musical rhythms. The beautiful camera of James Wong Howe gives me that "little jolt of pleasure" (an expression used by James Mason in "A Star is Born" when he hears Garland sing!)
Oh, "Picnic" is simply a glorious film!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNxtxfuZD6M

Lastly, the magnificent opening title sequence for "Catch Me if You Can" (Music by John Williams). Just extraordinary, particularly with that graphic design.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaLDyrun_Cc

[Bonn1827]

Agree!! Billy Wilder - my all-time absolute favourite director!! My husband loves "Some Like it Hot", where I incline towards "Seven Year Itch" as my fave of these two cinematic masterpieces!! Remember Tommy Ewell, "...inwardly, downwardly, under...." when he talked about being transformed into the portrait of depravity (Dorian Gray) that he was becoming, having edited those sordid little novelettes!!! Love that George Axelrod script!!

Curtis was marvellous in "Sweet Smell of Success" (Clifford Odets/Alexander Mackendrik) and "The Boston Strangler". The man really COULD act his sox off!

Ed, all this talk about films; all this thinking, again, about them...I'm considering starting a PhD in 2012 when I return from my 12 months in Vienna. I'm going to contact the local universities to see what kind of supervision I could get and then deliberate on a topic. It's something I've always wanted to do - unfinished business, if you will!

[Ed C]

I don't think we've seen that one yet - I'll keep an eye out, thanks!

..way off topic now but - we just watched "Some Like it Hot" for he umpteenth time - RIP Tony Curtis. What an amazing cast and director.

[Bonn1827]

Speaking of Elia Kazan, Ed, my favourite film of his goes back to 1948:

"A Tree Grows in Brooklyn" (your wife might know this one!)

I thoroughly recommend this extraordinary film which has always remained in my Top 10!! Dorothy Maguire is outstanding as the mother, and Francie, the main character, is played magnificently by Peggy Ann Garner. The film is sentimental without being mawkish or cloying. I think it one of the most moving films ever and there is a magnificent scene - pure Kazan - where the father (James Dunn, himself a hopeless alcoholic doomed to a short life) plays the piano: he sings "Annie Laurie" (the Irish song) on a broken down piano in the flat, with Macguire framed in the shot leaning against the door in a run-down dress and apron. The song represents all the failed expectations and the thwarted love between the two. Such power! It is a story all about family and not to be missed!!

[Ed C]

Oh wow Korngold - I LOVE his score for the Sea Hawk! I think I have like 4 different recordings of that one. Robin Hood is also great here's a great doc about the manic fight scene:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCDKTLr7_h0

Rozsa is also always great, Tiomkin can be great, I love his The Thing and the Land of the Pharoahs (I think that's what it's called). All the golden age guys were real wizards.

[Bonn1827]

It's good to have you back, Ed. The book I mentioned earlier, with reference to Bernard Herrmann and others, is "Overtones and Undertones: Reading Film Music" by Royal S. Brown. It is a difficult, but rewarding, read. Other topics for discussion include:

"Beyond the Diegesis" - Korngold, "The Sea Hawk, Rozsa, "Double Indemnity" (a fave film of mine!), The Eisenstein/Prokofiev phenomenon - fascinating!!

Also discussions on Jean-Luc Godard under "New Styles, Genres, Interactions". Another terrific chapter is "Music As Image as Music: A Postmodern Perspective". Interviews are recorded with the following luminaries:

Rozsa
Raksin
Herrmann
Mancini
Jarre
Schifrin
Barry
Shore

Herrmann is quoted at the top of the chapter about him entitled, "Herrmann, Hitchcock, and the Music of the Irrational". Discussions and analysis of all the major films follows in this chapter. The quote at the top of the chapter is as follows:

"Hitchcock only finishes a picture 60%. I have to finish it for him"!!! (Such ego).

[Ed C]

Sorry for dropping this thread Bonn, I actually have the "other" section bookmarked so I forget about this part!
Yeah Benny composed Salaambo, I remember reading a telegraph from Welles to BH describing what he wanted. On the CD I think I mentioned before Charles Gerhardt did a great rerecording of the opera scene with Kiri Te Kanawa. It's a pretty fascinating look at how Benny might have composed a "traditional" opera. Benny himself only did one opera (hey, that sounds familiar...) "Wuthering Heights" which is actually going to be performed next year for Benny's centennial...it's very interesting, but a little bit too long IMHO. He used themes from Ghost & Mrs Muir as well as Jane Eyre...

Funny you mention Kazan, I just saw a doc on TV last night bout him with Martin Scorcese. I have to watch more of his films....

[Bonn1827]

Ed, do you know anything about 'Salaambo' in "Citizen Kane" - the opera which Susan sings so badly? Did this have anything to do with Benny Herrmann? It was a terrifyingly funny moment in the film when the vocal coach couldn't get Susan to those high notes!! Welles used those vocal attempts quite powerfully to contrast with Kane's decline into a kind of madness. Was there ever a more innovative theatre/film director, apart from Houseman, Kazan, and Harold Clurman and the Actors' Studio? I've just read a biography of Kazan and those early days with Clurman, Odets, Miller et. al - these people were at the cutting edge! Where are their equivalents today?

[Bonn1827]

Thank you, I'll get that book to which you referred. Also, I don't know whether you've read Donald Spoto's hagiography about Hitchcock - not sure if there's much about BH in there, but I won't touch the book because I read Spoto's Olivier bio and found that offensive. Perhaps I should continue my musings on that film forum you've told me about!?

[Ed C]

What do you think of the idiosyncratic, whimsical score for "The Trouble With Harry"? This is seldom mentioned in discussions, yet it's an excellent little vignette.

That's a pretty unusual score for BH - it's one of his most comical for sure. Some really great cues in there, tho, very rustic, you can hear the "American sound" in that one. Benny was part of Aaron Copland's circle of friends before Hollywood.

I highly recommend "A heart at fire's center: the life and music of Bernard Herrmann" by Steven Smith. It's an excellent biography of BH and I have 2 copies - 1 in HC and one in ppbck for quick flipping!

Benny reminds me of LvB somewhat - they were both very nice in the beginning but became bitter in the last decades of their lives. Tho Benny was always nice deep inside. There's the story of how this kid waited for him in a hotel lobby to get his autograph and Benny was like "Get the Hell away from me!" The kid followed him persisting and when Benny finally said OK he wrote out his signature along with the first 4 bars of the Psycho theme! Can you imagine what that would be like on ebay now - LOL!