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Luis
12-10-2000, 04:33 PM
I though this was a good idea: to open a thread or even a sub forum (as the comments forum) regarding recommendations not only about Beethoven. Some visitors, like me, who arenít classical music experts, can find it very useful. I would be interested, for example, in some recommendations about Hšndel, Schumann, Schubert, Brahms, Bartůk, Haydn and Mozart (not symphonies, piano concertos nor piano sonatas) or good (if any) modern music.
Well here my first ones:
Mendelssohn - Lieder ohne Worte (songs without words) -If you like Schubertís Impromptus youíd like these ones, as well as Brahmsís Ballads and Intermezzos. Also from Brahms: Piano Trio No. 1 in B major, Op. 8. (The first movement is so wonderful). Another nice trio: Tchaikovskyís Op.50, 'In Memory of the Great Artist'.
You wonít find any Truth within these tunes, just some delightful music. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Regards, Luis.

Serge
12-10-2000, 07:51 PM
Nice idea, Luis, but we have had enough friction here already over just ONE composer-- imagine the issues that could arise over a whole slew of them.
As fond as I am of other composers (notably Schumann, Berlioz, Saint-Saens, and Dvorak), this is a Beethoven site, and its reason for being must remain inviolate. We have enough fun trying to get nuggets of useful info out of all the heated debate going on here; let's not complicate it!

I'll send you the website of a place I go to discuss c.m. in general. It's quite a worthwhile forum, I must say.

Luis
12-11-2000, 01:11 AM
???
What would be the problem to just give and to receive some recommendations about other composers than Beethoven?
On the other hand, personally I donít think the last discussions 'per se' have created any friction. There were not the frictions but the irreducible positions (on both sides) that emerged that convinced me -even when I had my long and last word almost ready to be posted- that it was not worthwhile to continue discussing. It was not my intention certainly to bother anybody and neither I felt annoyed at all. If I had deviated the discussion from more interesting topics for the members of this forum, I donít know what to say: Sorry?

Clueless, Luis.

Rod
12-11-2000, 06:49 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
???
What would be the problem to just give and to receive some recommendations about other composers than Beethoven?
On the other hand, personally I donít think the last discussions 'per se' have created any friction. There were not the frictions but the irreducible positions (on both sides) that emerged that convinced me -even when I had my long and last word almost ready to be posted- that it was not worthwhile to continue discussing. It was not my intention certainly to bother anybody and neither I felt annoyed at all. If I had deviated the discussion from more interesting topics for the members of this forum, I donít know what to say: Sorry?

Clueless, Luis.

It is ok to give recommendations of other composers, or even discuss them to a minor extent, but better still from a Beethovenian perspective. There are already numerous general classical music forums, and forums for other composers, so we would ideally like to keep this one focused around 'Beethovenia' . I can give you recommendations for Handel, firstly NEVER consider modern instrument recordings, then just go by the Penguin Guide's recommendations, they are usually on the mark (unlike their Beethoven recommendations), or as best as you can afford (the Naxos label oratarios are excellent value and well recorded). For Handel, other than the well known stuff like Messiah, Water and Fireworks etc I would initially recommend the concertos op3,4,6 and 7; The Carmelite Vespers (especially Dixit Dominus); and the oratarios Saul, Solomon and Theodora, but most of his works are of this standard and I could name a dozen more. If you don't like these, you'll never like Handel.

Rod



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

~Leslie
12-11-2000, 11:02 AM
Luis, This is an area which interests me very much.

It involves my never ending curiousity over the study of these questions:

What other kinds of music do devoted Beethoven fans resonate with? Are they more concerned with prior works that symbolize the foundation he drew upon, or are they drawn to the latter impact, after his passing?

If Beethoven symbolizes the pinnacle of substantive musical achievement (subjective)
to the ears of these educated listeners, where do they go to reach an alternative catharsis?

Rod, everyone, were this topic to be confined into specific threads, since we are all outright bonafide
Beethoven fans, would it not be interesting to view each other's horizons in the sonic landscape?~

Rod
12-11-2000, 12:53 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:

Rod, everyone, were this topic to be confined into specific threads, since we are all outright bonafide Beethoven fans, would it not be interesting to view each other's horizons in the sonic landscape?~

Not particularly for me at least, unless it has at least some latent connection with the Master. I suggest we our other musical interests in our profiles, then others can follow the matter up in private if they are interested. I have done this myself already.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
12-11-2000, 02:18 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:

What other kinds of music do devoted Beethoven fans resonate with? Are they more concerned with prior works that symbolize the foundation he drew upon, or are they drawn to the latter impact, after his passing?

~

I just like great music - B is obviously my favourite, but I listen to most other composers from Monteverdi to Stravinsky. I find it much easier to select a favourite work by other composers apart from my A list of the top 4 - Bach,Beethoven,Handel,Mozart.

e.g favourite Dvorak is the 'cello concerto,
favourite Richard Strauss is Don Juan

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'Man know thyself'

Serge
12-11-2000, 06:13 PM
I really seem to have upset Luis over my reply. That wasn't my intention at all! I apologize, Luis.

Nevertheless, I still believe that if we started discussing other composers we could well lose the focus of the forum as it exists right now: to talk Beethoven. For once, I'm entirely on Rod's side here. Out of the millions of websites in existence today, I only know of two that discuss primarily Beethoven. I'd like to keep it that way.

But if everyone else wants to go ahead with it, I'm not going to say no, and I'll gladly offer my take on my other fave composers.

Serge
12-11-2000, 06:25 PM
I should also say that you have no need to feel contrite over your Mozart post; it was very ...umm... "educational", and it allowed to see where some of us stood in the realm of c.m. interpretation. Besides, conflict has its advantages: hones our oratorial skill, allows us to form profiles of those we talk to, provides the impetus to see how far we are willing to defend ourselves... to a degree, of course. You see, Luis, you did us a world of good!

Luis
12-12-2000, 12:42 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge:
[B]I really seem to have upset Luis over my reply. That wasn't my intention at all! I apologize, Luis.

What?
Or some of us are a too much susceptible these days or I have to improve my English more than I always thought. (yeah... maybe both http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/biggrin.gif)
---
I love that smile!

Luis
12-12-2000, 01:49 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
[B] It is ok to give recommendations of other composers, or even discuss them to a minor extent, but better still from a Beethovenian perspective. There are already numerous general classical music forums, and forums for other composers, so we would ideally like to keep this one focused around 'Beethovenia'.

What is the big deal?! Why don't we let each person decide what to post and what to read?!


I can give you recommendations for Handel, firstly NEVER consider modern instrument recordings, then just go by the Penguin Guide's recommendations, they are usually on the mark (unlike their Beethoven recommendations)

You English people and your Penguin Guide's! I guess you can't conceive that someone can buy something without checking that guide! Unfortunately we don't have that guide here in Argentina. That thinghs happen, I canít figure out what people from other countries can put in the middle of cakes when you donít have dulce de leche (Has anyone tried it?...mmm delicious!)


For Handel, other than the well known stuff like Messiah, Water and Fireworks etc I would initially recommend the concertos op3,4,6 and 7; The Carmelite Vespers (especially Dixit Dominus); and the oratarios Saul, Solomon and Theodora, but most of his works are of this standard and I could name a dozen more. If you don't like these, you'll never like Handel.


Thanks! I bought Dixit Dominus from Gardiner,but I hadn't had enough time to hear it. Besides all you mentioned as Handelīs most known works, which I have and like, I like Solomon but not much the organ concertos op. 7.

Iīll tell you tomorrow what I think about DD. Bye for now.

Luis

Rod
12-12-2000, 06:39 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
....Thanks! I bought Dixit Dominus from Gardiner,but I hadn't had enough time to hear it. Besides all you mentioned as Handelīs most known works, which I have and like, I like Solomon but not much the organ concertos op. 7.

Iīll tell you tomorrow what I think about DD. Bye for now.

Luis

The big deal is that this is a Beethoven forum, and if we stray too far from this focal point the place will lose all its identity and end up as a general talking shop. This WILL happen unless some boundaries are put in place. It's not too strict here anyway - other composers frequently get a mention (see below!), but regardless I don't think someone would come to a Beethoven website for an in-depth discussion about Stravinsky or Barry Manillow.

I thought the Penguin Guide was like the Bible, you can get it any where. With Handel, as with Beethoven, one has to be carefull as they have to be played with a particular spirit and sincere expression, something one does not often hear in recordings. Regarding op7, Handel himself was an organ supremo, so blame the perfomance (who is playing by the way?).

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Luis
12-12-2000, 11:29 PM
My intention was merely to name pieces we like just as you and I did! Not to in-depth discuss anything!

About my version of Handel OC, op. 7, it might not be the best (Ivan Sokol -organ- and Slovakian Chamber Orchestra) but I found it so cheap that I couldnít resist buying it. (Two CDs. with Hís OC op. 7 and Bachís famous violin concertos BWV 1041-3 and some preludes and fugues for 2.5 Dollars!!). Still, in my opinion, is not the interpretation the problem but the fact Iím not so fond of the so structured baroque organ music; There are some really enjoyable and original movements, though (1st mvts of OC No. 4 and No. 6).

About Dixit Dominus, evidently it is a primitive example of the later florid and exultant typical Handel style, but still has its moments: like Dixit Dominus and the anthem Zadok the priest. But Iíll give it some time; I only listen to it twice.

The other day I listened on the radio a version of Hís Royal Fireworks as they were planed to be played (only for military instruments!). Weird? yes, but quite powerful and lively! Has anyone heard such a thing?

Serge
12-13-2000, 06:28 PM
Those are good non-Beethoven-related recommendations. May I add a few reccommendations of my own?

-Berlioz's S. Fantastique by the Detroit Symphony under Paul Paray
-Eminem over DMX: many people have a problem with E., but he's The Real Slim Shady.
-Starbucks white hot chocolate and caramel mocchiato--sooo good.
-Maxim magazine (lots funnier than FHM)
-DVD players (my roommate just bought one for the house--what a sweet guy-- and I must say they are fantastic! Wave of the future!)
-stadium-style seats at the movie theatres over conventional ones in the local houses.
-planting all-male asparagus next spring instead of dioecious plants (you'll get more stalks and they'll be fatter, too)
-the new Honda S2000 (a very smart-looking car, and it even meets California's low-emission standards! Much sexier than Corvettes, IMHO)


Perhaps I'm being too blunt. Perhaps I'm being a jerk. All I know is that perhaps I may have spoken too quickly before by endorsing the whole 'recommendations' thing. Perhaps.

I just came from edepot, which is now a pathetic shell of what it used to be. Someone named "musicman" is creating an endless list of puerile or overtly-vague questions that lead nowhere, and they are likely made by Tim. Hardly anyone replies to them-- I did at first, thinking they'd lead somewhere, and boy, how wrong I was. Bob the moderator apparently doesn't care about preventing the dignity of discussion draining out and away from his forum. All that the serious, smart, and dedicated Beethoven-admirer has left is this right here. And I do not want to see its focus go fuzzy. I do not want to eventually see Beethoven discussed beside 19th cent. Italian opera or 20th cent. minimalist music. There are places for that. I do not want to see posts about composers entirely different from and in no way connected by argument to Beethoven going up; and if we allow the envelope to widen--even slightly-- that is exactly what will one day occur. Where are the standards here? This site exists to talk about Ludwig, whether by himself or in direct correlation to other composers. If we allow lists of favorite non-Beethoven composers' works to be discussed here, then we may as well allow arguments to go forth about why we chose them. And then we may as well allow discussion about non-classical topics as well. And then we'll have no Beethoven forum. We'll have what www.beethoven.com (http://www.beethoven.com) has: a melting pot of c.m. conversation. It's great to talk about c.m. there, but I prefer to talk about Ludwig HERE.

I don't want to be snide, or rude, or 'clever', but I want this point to be made. Some of us may have harbored initial horror or peeve at Rod for banning Tim and shutting threads off a short while ago. But it is exactly because of his efforts that this forum registers a lot more conversation than Bob's. It is exactly because of Rod's diligence that we were able to get positively passionate about Beethoven on Luis's Mozart thread. Rod, whatever our differences may be, I fully support your intentions to keep this site pure. It would be just like your favorite special-interest magazine talking about things that don't actually belong in that special-interest area. Like Organic Gardening magazine discussing Miracle-Gro. Or Modern Bride talking about new Intel processors. Focus needs to be maintained or direction is lost.

Non-Beethoven can easily be discussed at any other general-classical forum. This here, though, is a BEETHOVEN forum, and really should remain so. To those who honestly disagree, I urge you you explain why.

Rod
12-14-2000, 08:47 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
My intention was merely to name pieces we like just as you and I did! Not to in-depth discuss anything!


Fair enough.

Originally posted by Luis:
About my version of Handel OC, op. 7, it might not be the best (Ivan Sokol -organ- and Slovakian Chamber Orchestra) but I found it so cheap that I couldnít resist buying it. (Two CDs. with Hís OC op. 7 and Bachís famous violin concertos BWV 1041-3 and some preludes and fugues for 2.5 Dollars!!). Still, in my opinion, is not the interpretation the problem but the fact Iím not so fond of the so structured baroque organ music; There are some really enjoyable and original movements, though (1st mvts of OC No. 4 and No. 6).


Ah! All is now clear, you broke the cardinal rule - you bought a modern instrument version - I bet there is tons of vibrato on the vocals and nerve-splitting steel stringing. I also bet all the phrasing and tempi were completely out. For music like this, and for Beethoven equally, you need the original real McCoy when it comes to instruments and technique, on this matter I will never be moved.

Originally posted by Luis:
About Dixit Dominus, evidently it is a primitive example of the later florid and exultant typical Handel style, but still has its moments: like Dixit Dominus and the anthem Zadok the priest. But Iíll give it some time; I only listen to it twice.


DD has its moments!!?? Every number is a gem! Gardiner can on occasion be a little lack lustre (as in his Kyrie in his B Missa Solemnis and various moments in his B symphonies on Archive label). I would recommend the DD of the Handel Carmelite Vespers twin CD set on Virgin Veritas label, this version is absolutely fantastic, great sonority on the strings and some of the best vocals I have ever heard from the sopranos.

Originally posted by Luis:
The other day I listened on the radio a version of Hís Royal Fireworks as they were planed to be played (only for military instruments!). Weird? yes, but quite powerful and lively! Has anyone heard such a thing?

I have a recording of the original (period) instrumentation. It's pretty terrifying at times! Great stuff, but to loud to play at 'authentic' volume (which is my usual taste), I'm in trouble with the neighbours on that score already thanks to my recording of B's Wellington's Victory!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-14-2000).]