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matthewhayes
12-10-2000, 03:49 PM
I am currently preparing to do some research concerning Beethoven's involvement with the French Revolution. Are there any worthwhile internet sites out there?

Rod
12-11-2000, 07:29 AM
Originally posted by matthewhayes:
I am currently preparing to do some research concerning Beethoven's involvement with the French Revolution. Are there any worthwhile internet sites out there?

I doubt very much indeed if B had any personal involvement in the French Revolution! But he was certainly influenced by it, and it seems he was familiar with some of the revolutionary songs which on occasion have been hinted at in his music. Don't know about websites on this subject however.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
12-11-2000, 09:19 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
I doubt very much indeed if B had any personal involvement in the French Revolution! But he was certainly influenced by it.
Rod



And sympathised with it's aims (though I doubt the 'terror' would have met with his approval) - good Republican that he was.

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'Man know thyself'

Luis
12-12-2000, 12:05 AM
Well, there are many well-known anecdotes surrounding B and the French Revolution. The dedication and the latter furious erase of the 3rd symphony dedication to Napoleon is certainly the best known, * as well as his refuse to play for the French military officials in 1806. I suppose you already heard of this but if you didnít we can discuss it. Anyway, here Iím interested in how Bís opinion towards Napoleon changed throughout the years. (maybe you can take something from here!)
I think it was on this site I read that B once said about Nap. something like ďeven with that bastard I made a mistakeĒ. So my questions are what were Bís opinions towards N before and after (maybe later in Bís life?) the incident of the Emperor proclamation. What did B admire from N to dedicate him the 3rd (I must say that beforeproclaiming himself Emperor and before the 3rd was written, N was already Consul for life Ėaccording to the Constitution dictated by him- and with absolute powers). Did he thought by this time Nís achievement was to settle down the Revolution and institutionalize it with modern codes or that opinion was many years later? What did B saw in Nís battles mere conquest or freedom and modernity expansion? (the new codes, which represented feudalism abolition, declaration of rights, parliaments, education, science and art promotion, free of cult, etc., were installed on all conquested countries) What were Bís opinions towards the Restoration (is this word well written?) and Metternichís regime?

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* I once read that it was possible that the erase of the dedication of the 3rd didnít corresponded to an anger assault but instead that Beethoven was first trying to find in Paris some music market (and that would explain the dedication according to this theory) and then he was trying to obtain the Viennese citizenship. Have you heard of this?

Peter
12-12-2000, 04:58 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
Well, there are many well-known anecdotes surrounding B and the French Revolution. The dedication and the latter furious erase of the 3rd symphony dedication to Napoleon is certainly the best known, * as well as his refuse to play for the French military officials in 1806.


The incidents you mention didn't really occur during the French Revolution which strictly speaking covers the period 1789-1795.Then comes the period of the Napoleonic wars - I presume Matthew was referring to the earlier period in his post, and B certainly played no part in those momentous events. What riled B about Napoleon, was that he had supported the Revolutionary ideals , only to find one absolute ruler ,Louis XVI replaced by another , Napoleon.
I'm not sure about B's admiration for Napoleon prior to his being Emperor - B must have seen Napoleon as the champion of liberal and revolutionary ideals who would bring an end to the autocratic monarchies in Europe.In this of course he was disappointed and it took the first world war to do that.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
12-12-2000, 06:06 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
The incidents you mention didn't really occur during the French Revolution which strictly speaking covers the period 1789-1795.Then comes the period of the Napoleonic wars - I presume Matthew was referring to the earlier period in his post, and B certainly played no part in those momentous events. What riled B about Napoleon, was that he had supported the Revolutionary ideals , only to find one absolute ruler ,Louis XVI replaced by another , Napoleon.
I'm not sure about B's admiration for Napoleon prior to his being Emperor - B must have seen Napoleon as the champion of liberal and revolutionary ideals who would bring an end to the autocratic monarchies in Europe.In this of course he was disappointed and it took the first world war to do that.


B's inital annoyance with Bonaparte as Emperor, was softened later by a more ambivalent attitude in later days, perhaps he saw that the status quo had developed a tighter grip in light of Napoleons 'indiscretions'.

Pitty WWI didn't result in the removal of our (UK's) troup of worthless inbread freeloading wretches.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
12-12-2000, 08:27 AM
Originally posted by Rod:

Pitty WWI didn't result in the removal of our (UK's) troup of worthless inbread freeloading wretches.



We've had so many missed opportunities to turn this country (UK)into a proper democracy - I can only conclude that the Revolutionary spirit of B has yet to reach these shores or that (more likely) most people here are deafer than Beethoven ever was.


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'Man know thyself'

PDG
12-12-2000, 06:57 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
We've had so many missed opportunities to turn this country (UK)into a proper democracy - I can only conclude that the Revolutionary spirit of B has yet to reach these shores or that (more likely) most people here are deafer than Beethoven ever was.


TALK ABOUT STRAYING FROM THE ORIGINAL ENQUIRY!

TO PETER AND ROD:-

One of the reasons why you are able to express your extreme views on our monarchy (even in a Beethoven forum!), is that this is a free country; and the reason why you have that freedom is that we have, in place, a monarchy whose purpose is to act as an umbrella, covering and overseeing all of the intrinsically-powerful institutions within our society; namely, the civil service, the church, the police, the military, the law and politics. The monarchy keeps each of these constituent parts of itself in check via its symbolism (The Crown), and thus, it prevents power-struggles from within.

The worth of the monarchy is not in what it does, but in what it PREVENTS.

Those who foam at the mouth for immediate change should remember the appalling events of 1790s France, and think again. Of course, the system we have is not perfect, but, for goodness` sake, look around you - we have no ethnic cleansing, no intentional human suffering, no despotic dictator leading us into oblivion. And we have no war.

Change is happening with the monarchy, but it is slow change - and that`s just the way it should be.

I should like to stress that I am neither a monarchist, nor a royalist; I simply wanted to offer an alternative, moderate (that`s REAL moderation, Rod!) viewpoint.

Peter, I hope that one day you get your `proper democracy`, and that you are able to enjoy it without looking over your shoulder.

I believe that this is not the place for a debate on this issue, so I shall not be responding further - I just wanted my say.

Thank you.

~Leslie
12-12-2000, 10:49 PM
You think that's bad, how would you like to have George Dubya for president?

Sorry PDG, this thread needs a little good ol' Americana in it. I do acknowledge what you've said ;)

Someone said the Eroica Symphony was the parallel equivalent to Shakespeare's Macbeth, another power hungry dude.~

matthewhayes
12-12-2000, 11:38 PM
Perhaps I should rephrase my original question. I'm concerned with finding information on how Beethoven took the ideals of the French Revolution (Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood) and incorporated them into his music.Examples such as his use of cyclic procedure, and emphisis of the submediant in Sym 3, 5, 6,9. His choice of Text for the (9th Symphony, and specifically his amalgamation of seperate movements into a sonata form structure in Tthe string quartet Op. 131. This is the question which I first posed, however crudly. Does anyone know of some online resources, or have access to personal ones, so that I can get some answers to this question?

P.s. I enjoyed all replies so far--they were great!

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Luis
12-12-2000, 11:51 PM
What percentage of the British population you think are in favor of the royalty as part of the State? (I always wonderedÖ)

To PDG
Ok, but you are not the only country that doesnít suffer from all that calamitiesÖFor what reason you think in your case that would be because of the monarchy?
Besides, your views about the monarchy as the ultimate warranty only would be applied on an extreme situation. But even on that occasion I donít think It would have any role (think in Spanish monarchy on their Civil War)

Peter
12-13-2000, 03:58 AM
Originally posted by PDG:

One of the reasons why you are able to express your extreme views on our monarchy (even in a Beethoven forum!), is that this is a free country; and the reason why you have that freedom is that we have, in place, a monarchy whose purpose is to act as an umbrella, covering and overseeing all of the intrinsically-powerful institutions within our society
The worth of the monarchy is not in what it does, but in what it PREVENTS.



I agree this is not the place to get side-tracked into constitutional matters, but I would like to know why anyone who dares question the monarchy is regarded as an extremist ? - Was Beethoven an extremist ?
I do not accept that monarchy has anything to do with freedom - why do you think there was a French revolution and a Russian Revolution ? and a Civil war here ! - did monarchy protect from any of those events, no - because it caused them ! Where is our freedom of information act ?
You say 'we have no ethnic cleansing, no intentional human suffering, no despotic dictator leading us into oblivion. And we have no war' - doesn't this apply also to
America, France, Germany , Italy and virtually every other republic in Europe? The myths put about by monarchists are the true extreme view, because they deny democracy.
I believe in democracy - which means every citizen (not subject) has the right to aspire to be head of state - that is not an extreme view.

I'm desperately trying to think of a Beethoven connection here so that I don't break my own forum rules ! - Beethoven was in favour of the French Revolution and it's ideals (which of course went somewhat astray) because he believed in democracy - possibly the Greek system was his ideal ?

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-12-2000).]

Peter
12-13-2000, 05:21 AM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
You think that's bad, how would you like to have George Dubya for president?



At least you can get rid of him after 4 years if you're lucky ! - Imagine being sentenced to him for life , then having the indignity of his descendants imposed on you for infinity, with absolutely no say in the matter - welcome to the UK !

That's it - let off steam for the day, now back to Beethoven - think I'll go and play the 'Appassinonata' !


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'Man know thyself'

Peter
12-13-2000, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by matthewhayes:
Perhaps I should rephrase my original question. I'm concerned with finding information on how Beethoven took the ideals of the French Revolution (Liberty, Equality and Brotherhood) and incorporated them into his music.Examples such as his use of cyclic procedure, and emphisis of the submediant in Sym 3, 5, 6,9. His choice of Text for the (9th Symphony, and specifically his amalgamation of seperate movements into a sonata form structure in Tthe string quartet Op. 131. This is the question which I first posed, however crudly. Does anyone know of some online resources, or have access to personal ones, so that I can get some answers to this question?

P.s. I enjoyed all replies so far--they were great!



In his music after the Waldstein sonata, Beethoven does indeed frequently use the mediant or sub-mediant rather than the dominant as his contrasting key, but I'm not sure there is a direct link with the French revolution ! Perhaps Fidelio and the Eroica are the works that most embody the revolutionary ideals.
I know this isn't really what you're looking for, but I'm not quite sure where you're going to find it.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-13-2000).]

~Leslie
12-13-2000, 10:33 AM
Dear Peter,
Perish the thought!

Need I remind you
that he is the son of a former president?
The man is pathetique!!!!!!!!!!!!

Anyhoo, I've expressed enough appassionata
for one day.

If my posts cause too much harm, I will
erase them, Dubya's not fit to grace the pages of my Immortal Beloved Beethoven. ~

Suzie
12-13-2000, 02:01 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
At least you can get rid of him after 4 years if you're lucky ! - Imagine being sentenced to him for life , then having the indignity of his descendants imposed on you for infinity, with absolutely no say in the matter - welcome to the UK !

That's it - let off steam for the day, now back to Beethoven - think I'll go and play the 'Appassinonata' !




Peter,

Those are lovely words of comfort in our time of great distress. Thank you!

Suz