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Peter
11-29-2000, 01:45 PM
I'm opening this thread here for those who wish to post on this subject - I don't want the topic to continue on the 'confession' thread which will be deleted shortly.

Thayer's lengthy 5 vol biography was always considered as definitive , but it is of course rather dated in style.
Am I right in thinking that their is a new edition of the Maynard Solomon due out soon ?



------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
11-29-2000, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

I'm opening this thread here for those who wish to post on this subject - I don't want the topic to continue on the 'confession' thread which will be deleted shortly.

Thayer's lengthy 5 vol biography was always considered as definitive , but it is of course rather dated in style.
Am I right in thinking that their is a new edition of the Maynard Solomon due out soon ?



In the 'Scolars unite' thread I mention a new biography by Barry Cooper released in hardback. I briefly flicked through it in Borders but that's all, so I can say nothing of its quality relative to the others. I know nothing about the Solomon edition. I would have preferred a Thayer/Forbes unpdate personally.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Serge
11-30-2000, 12:27 AM
The revised Solomon is already out! He revised his original two years ago. While Rod thinks otherwise, I believe it is a fascinating book.

Peter
11-30-2000, 12:36 AM
Well I'd be interested to hear Rod's reasons for not approving of Solomon - I haven't read it, but most reviews I have come across are favourable - is there much new information in the revised version ?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 11-29-2000).]

Serge
11-30-2000, 12:51 AM
The revised Solomon contains new information on Beethoven's personal life, which has to me always been an overlooked part of B. scholarship. While the musicological detail is not extensive, it is not as if such info is lacking; you can find this stuff anywhere. What you won't find as readily are possible psychological explanations into B.'s personality. All of what Solomon says is not claimed as conclusive and is very thoroughly researched. It makes Beethoven, one the most documentable artists ever, seem much more REAL. I do urge you to read it.

Rod
11-30-2000, 12:30 PM
Originally posted by Serge:
The revised Solomon contains new information on Beethoven's personal life, which has to me always been an overlooked part of B. scholarship. While the musicological detail is not extensive, it is not as if such info is lacking; you can find this stuff anywhere. What you won't find as readily are possible psychological explanations into B.'s personality. All of what Solomon says is not claimed as conclusive and is very thoroughly researched. It makes Beethoven, one the most documentable artists ever, seem much more REAL. I do urge you to read it.

You have answered yourself why I am not so keen about Solomon, namely their is far too much conjecture in his writing - far too much Solomon - which is why I described him as an 'enthusiastic amateur'. I am not alone in my opinions regarding S, the most knowledgeable person I ever met regarding Beethoven, who has access to all kinds of the lastest archives on this subject was more scathing of his research than me! When you read the toroughly objective Thayer/Forbes then immediately look at the style of Solomon you will understand, which I why I would have preferred a revision of this book. I have no vested interest either way, it's just the impression I have. If Solomon turned out to be absolutely right, then I would admit to being absolutely wrong (curse the thought!).

Rod

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Suzie
12-01-2000, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Well I'd be interested to hear Rod's reasons for not approving of Solomon - I haven't read it, but most reviews I have come across are favourable - is there much new information in the revised version ?



I read Solomon's book last year and I thought it was so incredibly depressing. A lot of people have commented on the foolishness of trying ,as he does, to psychoanalyze B. He may be correct or he may just have a unique angle to make money with. I rather enjoy the writing style of Thayers and the objectivity. Man, I dig the little smiley guy with the shades!

Serge
12-01-2000, 10:31 AM
The thing is, it's not foolishness! It would be foolish to claim something of Beethoven and not back it up, evidence of which we've already seen. Solomon doesn't do that, though. He provides a very firm framework for anything he concludes or theorizes.
Beethoven scholarship should not end with Thayer. It needs to be updated, revised; sometimes, revolutionized. We should keep open minds about potential facets to B.'s life previously unheard of, esp. if there is convincing and corroborating evidence.
I enjoyed Thayer very much. I glanced through Schindler and reminded myself he was a liar, so I paid his account no mind. It is hard to find a bio of Beethoven that does as much service to understand his personal life as others have done to understand his music. I'm glad I read and own a copy of Solomon because of the insights that he brought to light are refreshingly new.

This current debate harks back a little to the melee I spurred once with my assertion thatI enjoyed the film Immortal Beloved. I claimed that despite its many and sometimes unforgiveable flaws, the movie managed to bring a visible "realism" to a figure who we would never meet or see in life. The composer was not draped in purple prose. The movie made, IMHO and only IMHO, a wholehearted attempt to portray a tortured but exalted human, which he was. It did not misrepresent him as an infallible music-writing deity which is how I perceived him many years back. (To those who are seething with rage at the mere thought of the movie, I'm already well-aware of it.)

I know Beethoven's music. I respond to it on a deep level that I am comfortable with. I don't listen to his work with as much concentration as I once did because the essence of any one piece comes to me more easily now and the familiarity of his style continues to serve me as it did years back when I could listen on my CBC Radio 2 to a piece I'd never heard before in my life and know, just KNOW, it was a Beethoven (and then be proven right!). What I AM interested in is learning about the MAN. What made him tick? What did he fear? What did he aspire to? How did he measure his life and did he feel vindicated/venerated/content when it was all said and done? Beethoven's music was just as much about emotion & personality-- HIS emotion & personality-- as it was about writing a good melody or experimenting with the form. How can we really expect to respond on an emotional/spiritual level to Beethoven's music if we aren't willing to consider what his life could have been like?

It is because I want to attach the music to the man that I respond well to thought-out ideas on why Beethoven was who he was. At the end of the day, I get a fuller picture. I get the widescreen version instead of the cropped pan-and-scan home video. It makes the listening that much more valuable to me.

This is just how I am, I suppose. I enjoy understanding how the specific is influenced by the whole. My whole life has been spent in this sort of analytical mode, and I think it's served me well. How do you react to this?

Chris
12-01-2000, 11:02 AM
This board is just filled with coolness, Suzie http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/cool.gif

Peter
12-01-2000, 11:36 AM
Originally posted by Serge:
Beethoven scholarship should not end with Thayer. It needs to be updated, revised; sometimes, revolutionized. We should keep open minds about potential facets to B.'s life previously unheard of, esp. if there is convincing and corroborating evidence.

It is because I want to attach the music to the man that I respond well to thought-out ideas on why Beethoven was who he was. At the end of the day, I get a fuller picture. I get the widescreen version instead of the cropped pan-and-scan home video. It makes the listening that much more valuable to me.



I think I shall but a copy of Solomon to see what the fuss is about ! - Provided you are coming from a basis of known facts, I see no harm in considering suggestions and possibilities if they can be substantiated or are plausible - I know that he puts a very logical and factual case for Toni Brentano as the Immortal beloved - I like that approach because it stimulates your mind and gets you thinking - he may be wrong (and that has always to be borne in mind), but at least he presents a case that can be argued.

My main problem with Immortal beloved is that it was neither of those - someone a while back suggested that the Immortal beloved was indeed Johanna Van Beethoven and claimed it had been proven - we asked him to supply the evidence and it was not forthcoming - I know of no evidence for this theory and therefore basing a film on it is pointless - also I simply thought Gary Oldman was dreadful and not at all how I like to think of B !

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
12-01-2000, 12:19 PM
Originally posted by Suzie:
I read Solomon's book last year and I thought it was so incredibly depressing. A lot of people have commented on the foolishness of trying ,as he does, to psychoanalyze B. He may be correct or he may just have a unique angle to make money with. I rather enjoy the writing style of Thayers and the objectivity. Man, I dig the little smiley guy with the shades!


I'm glad someone else sees things that was I do on this issue. Quite frankly it is possible to do your own assassment of B's psyche by reading things such as his letters and contemporary coments and observations about him, all of which has been in the public domain long before Solomon's book. I don't particularly want to pay someone else to conject for me. I regard S as a populist writer more than an academic one.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Suzie
12-01-2000, 04:30 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] I'm glad someone else sees things that was I do on this issue. Quite frankly it is possible to do your own assassment of B's psyche by reading things such as his letters and contemporary coments and observations about him, all of which has been in the public domain long before Solomon's book. I don't particularly want to pay someone else to conject for me. I regard S as a populist writer more than an academic one.

Rod

That about sums it Rod. I'd rather do the analysis myself.

Suz

Suzie
12-01-2000, 04:35 PM
I thought in IB Beethoven was portrayed negatively. Besides the music, where were his good qualities? Gary Oldman was yummy in it. Too bad it stunk.

---------------------------------------------

Sorry Suzie - I seem to have edited your message by mistake ! I meant simply to post a reply ! PETER - See below.




[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-01-2000).]

Suzie
12-01-2000, 04:37 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chris:
This board is just filled with coolness, [b]Suzie http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/cool.gif

I'm in with the in crowd!

Peter
12-01-2000, 06:34 PM
Originally posted by Suzie:
I thought in IB Beethoven was portrayed negatively. Besides the music, where were his good qualities? Gary Oldman was yummy in it. Too bad it stunk.



You may have found him Yummy, but he wasn't Beethoven ! I agree he was portrayed in far too negative a manner - where was his abundant humour ? To make B out to have been nothing but a miserable cantankerous old man (Oldman !! - I just couldn't resist it ! ) is absurd.

P.S Apologies once again for accidentally editing your message !!!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

PDG
12-01-2000, 07:35 PM
Surely, the inherent problem with any film account of a famous figure is that the film has, inevitably, but one main aim: to make money. Thus, bending or fabricating the facts is defended (in the film industry) as poetic licence. After all, doesn`t the public love, above all else, to be entertained?

`Immortal Beloved` was not made for Beethoven buffs - it was made for the cinema-going masses. The same can be said of `Amadeus`, a film which took just as many liberties with the truth. With `Immortal Beloved`, I think that Gary Oldman was adequate (I`d like to know how much research he did for his role); whatever your view on his believeability as Beethoven, I think that, if we`re honest with ourselves, NOBODY would have been good enough! I recall, about 15 years ago, the late Rod Steiger expressing the desire to portray the composer in a factual account-based film. Steiger, a dignified and thorough professional, would have done a stirling job, but, alas, the film never materialised.

There are, of course, other films based on Beethoven`s life, the earliest being as old as celluloid itself. I wonder if anyone has seen any of these other efforts. Perhaps this topic deserves a thread of its own - I`ll set one up shortly.

Michael
12-01-2000, 11:46 PM
Before seeing the movie "Immortal Beloved", I read an article about the writer/director, Bernard Rose, in which he said that he had a startling solution to the identity of the "Beloved" and that it would be hard to prove him wrong.
I immediately assumed the worst and sat, perspiring, in the cinema, convinced that the "Immortal Beloved" would be shown to be a man and, if the film became as popular as "Amadeus", another myth would gain popular credence. I was vastly relieved when it was only Johanna van Beethoven!
I found the movie good enough except it showed B doing every possible thing except composing.
An interesting point is that, according to a documentary I saw, Gary Oldman did his own piano playing in some of the scenes, notably the (fictitious) first performance of the "Emperor". But then, in an interview, Oldman stated that he didn't study much about B for the part and that it was not his "scene" or words to that effect. How could someone who could play the music be so dismissive about the whole thing?
In case I open another can of worms, I must stress that my horror at the thought of Beethoven being portrayed as gay was because of its total inaccuracy. I have no problem with Tchaikovsky, etc.

Michael

PDG
12-02-2000, 04:24 AM
Michael, many thanks.

From what you say, Gary Oldman has gone right down in my estimation - he wasn`t too high to begin with. What a twit!

I don`t understand why you worried that Beethoven might be shown as `gay` in the film; surely, it`s the same as him being shown as a woman, or as an alien, i.e. it`s complete rubbish! The very thought sends shivers down the spine!

And thankfully, it was ONLY poor old Johanna!! Oh dear! This poor, wretched woman whose only `crime` was to produce offspring before her famous brother-in-law; she deserves our full sympathy. Ludwig could not stand the fact that his kid brother had melted a woman`s heart before he had achieved as much, and his disgraceful tactics, against Johanna, in trying to win custody of Karl, should always remind us that Beethoven was a genius. A flawed genius. But humans by nature are flawed, so in our flawed thinking, we forgive him. Perhaps our sympathies are misplaced - especially where Johanna is concerned.

~Leslie
12-02-2000, 05:52 AM
There were two other Beethoven movies
I have seen. One was a Disney film I saw long ago, the other is a children's film called "Beethoven lives Upstair's".

Suzie
12-02-2000, 06:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
[B]Before seeing the movie "Immortal Beloved", I read an article about the writer/director, Bernard Rose, in which he said that he had a startling solution to the identity of the "Beloved" and that it would be hard to prove him wrong.
I immediately assumed the worst and sat, perspiring, in the cinema, convinced that the "Immortal Beloved" would be shown to be a man and, if the film became as popular as "Amadeus", another myth would gain popular credence. I was vastly relieved when it was only Johanna van Beethoven!
I found the movie good enough except it showed B doing every possible thing except composing.
An interesting point is that, according to a documentary I saw, Gary Oldman did his own piano playing in some of the scenes, notably the (fictitious) first performance of the "Emperor". But then, in an interview, Oldman stated that he didn't study much about B for the part and that it was not his "scene" or words to that effect. How could someone who could play the music be so dismissive about the whole thing?
In case I open another can of worms, I must stress that my horror at the thought of Beethoven being portrayed as gay was because of its total inaccuracy. I have no problem with Tchaikovsky, etc.

Michael

Their is a movie called Beethoven's Nephew. It was listed under 'gay interest' on an online auction. Of course I don't have the stomach to see it. I barely had the stmach for IB. How can you spend so much time making a movie and not do any research, and as you say play the music and not be affected by it? Can't be much human under Oldman's skin.

S

Suzie
12-02-2000, 06:47 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge:
[B]The thing is, it's not foolishness! It would be foolish to claim something of Beethoven and not back it up, evidence of which we've already seen. Solomon doesn't do that, though. He provides a very firm framework for anything he concludes or theorizes.
Beethoven scholarship should not end with Thayer. It needs to be updated, revised; sometimes, revolutionized. We should keep open minds about potential facets to B.'s life previously unheard of, esp. if there is convincing and corroborating evidence.
I enjoyed Thayer very much. I glanced through Schindler and reminded myself he was a liar, so I paid his account no mind. It is hard to find a bio of Beethoven that does as much service to understand his personal life as others have done to understand his music. I'm glad I read and own a copy of Solomon because of the insights that he brought to light are refreshingly new.

This current debate harks back a little to the melee I spurred once with my assertion thatI enjoyed the film Immortal Beloved. I claimed that despite its many and sometimes unforgiveable flaws, the movie managed to bring a visible "realism" to a figure who we would never meet or see in life. The composer was not draped in purple prose. The movie made, IMHO and only IMHO, a wholehearted attempt to portray a tortured but exalted human, which he was. It did not misrepresent him as an infallible music-writing deity which is how I perceived him many years back. (To those who are seething with rage at the mere thought of the movie, I'm already well-aware of it.)

I know Beethoven's music. I respond to it on a deep level that I am comfortable with. I don't listen to his work with as much concentration as I once did because the essence of any one piece comes to me more easily now and the familiarity of his style continues to serve me as it did years back when I could listen on my CBC Radio 2 to a piece I'd never heard before in my life and know, just KNOW, it was a Beethoven (and then be proven right!). What I AM interested in is learning about the MAN. What made him tick? What did he fear? What did he aspire to? How did he measure his life and did he feel vindicated/venerated/content when it was all said and done? Beethoven's music was just as much about emotion & personality-- HIS emotion & personality-- as it was about writing a good melody or experimenting with the form. How can we really expect to respond on an emotional/spiritual level to Beethoven's music if we aren't willing to consider what his life could have been like?

It is because I want to attach the music to the man that I respond well to thought-out ideas on why Beethoven was who he was. At the end of the day, I get a fuller picture. I get the widescreen version instead of the cropped pan-and-scan home video. It makes the listening that much more valuable to me.

This is just how I am, I suppose. I enjoy understanding how the specific is influenced by the whole. My whole life has been spent in this sort of analytical mode, and I think it's served me well. How do you react to this?

Serge,

When I listen to B's music I am compelled to know more about the man. I have heard much, especially on edepot, about how the music stands alone. This is beyond my comprehension. I spend a chunk of my waking hours pondering the man and what made him tick.

I am certain he feared nothing. I found Solomon's book to be tear jerker and he made B seem like a mental case(granted, I think that was his point). No matter what life handed him, he could always find a way to cope which is ADMIRABLE. Antonie Brentano? Married to B's good friend, nervous, sickly, 4 kids? Hello!

IB was the same. It portrayed him as angry, drunken and pathetic. To me, this is crap.

Sincerely,

Suz

Suzie
12-02-2000, 06:49 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B] You may have found him Yummy, but he wasn't Beethoven ! I agree he was portrayed in far too negative a manner - where was his abundant humour ? To make B out to have been nothing but a miserable cantankerous old man (Oldman !! - I just couldn't resist it ! ) is absurd.

P.S Apologies once again for accidentally editing your message !!!

No need to apologize, Sir http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gifSorry about the 'yummy' thing. I had a brief lapse.

Suzie
12-02-2000, 07:08 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Leslie:
[B]There were two other Beethoven movies
I have seen. One was a Disney film I saw long ago, the other is a children's film called "Beethoven lives Upstair's".

I think Beethoven Lives Upstairs is outstanding.

Michael
12-02-2000, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Suzie:

Their is a movie called Beethoven's Nephew. It was listed under 'gay interest' on an online auction. Of course I don't have the stomach to see it. I barely had the stmach for IB. How can you spend so much time making a movie and not do any research, and as you say play the music and not be affected by it? Can't be much human under Oldman's skin.

S[/B]

Actually, I have a copy of "Beethoven's Nephew" and it's not a bad movie. I don't know why the hell it would be listed under "gay interest" films as there is no indication of this whatsoever in it. It was made on a low budget, I should think, and the older Beethoven is played very well by an actor whose name escapes me. The only problem with it is that Beethoven can hear perfectly in some scenes and is stone deaf in others. I know he had some good days even towards the end of his life, but this was ridiculuous. It's still worth looking at as it is, in general, more accurate than "Immortal Beloved", (which wouldn't be difficult).
Michael

Suzie
12-02-2000, 05:03 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Michael:
[B] Actually, I have a copy of "Beethoven's Nephew" and it's not a bad movie. I don't know why the hell it would be listed under "gay interest" films as there is no indication of this whatsoever in it. It was made on a low budget, I should think, and the older Beethoven is played very well by an actor whose name escapes me. The only problem with it is that Beethoven can hear perfectly in some scenes and is stone deaf in others. I know he had some good days even towards the end of his life, but this was ridiculuous. It's still worth looking at as it is, in general, more accurate than "Immortal Beloved", (which wouldn't be difficult).
Michael


Thanks for the review, Michael. I think I will try to find it.

Suz

Rod
12-04-2000, 11:20 AM
Originally posted by PDG:

...And thankfully, it was ONLY poor old Johanna!! Oh dear! This poor, wretched woman whose only `crime` was to produce offspring before her famous brother-in-law; she deserves our full sympathy. Ludwig could not stand the fact that his kid brother had melted a woman`s heart before he had achieved as much, and his disgraceful tactics, against Johanna, in trying to win custody of Karl, should always remind us that Beethoven was a genius. A flawed genius. But humans by nature are flawed, so in our flawed thinking, we forgive him. Perhaps our sympathies are misplaced - especially where Johanna is concerned.



Well, I'm not so sure that Johanna was as blameless as you suspect. B's detestation of her was not on the ground that she treated Karl badly, for there is no evidence of this, but on the ground of her immoral behaviour, of which evidence does exist. Basically B believed she was a woman of 'easy virtue', and he was not alone in this respect. In fact Johanna gave birth to and illegitimate child during the court procedings, a point that Schindler mentions with utter disgust in his biography as just one example of her immoral behaviour. Basically having casual sex out of wed-lock was not approved of in those days! Especially by a moralist like Beethoven. I suspect B thought she may have also committed adultery to make matters worse, or even been involved in the death of his brother (unproven of course)!! All the same I would agree that J was all likely not a bad person by todays standards.

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-04-2000).]

~Leslie
12-04-2000, 12:17 PM
Maybe they should have called the movie:

"Immoral Beloved"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL!~

Rod
12-04-2000, 12:54 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Maybe they should have called the movie:

"Immoral Beloved"

Sorry, I couldn't resist. LOL!~

The horror...the horror...stick to dressage Lol!!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

~Leslie
12-04-2000, 01:43 PM
Rod, I am a wordsmith, I can't help it.
What shocks me is......noone thought of this before. <g>
If I can make ppl laugh in this site, I will be very contented and less apt to flame the ever lovin........outta somebody.
But if you keep teasing me, I shall have no recourse but to start submitting my classical/avante jabberwocky......
and to work the cutting edge of moderation
by posting such controversial new age posts
as the healing effects of Beethoven & Mozart over AC/DC. BTW, don't forget yer earplugs,tonite....
protect that sense in you that should be more perfect than any other. Cheers~

Rod
12-05-2000, 10:48 AM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Rod, I am a wordsmith, I can't help it.
What shocks me is......noone thought of this before. <g>
If I can make ppl laugh in this site, I will be very contented and less apt to flame the ever lovin........outta somebody.
But if you keep teasing me, I shall have no recourse but to start submitting my classical/avante jabberwocky......
and to work the cutting edge of moderation
by posting such controversial new age posts
as the healing effects of Beethoven & Mozart over AC/DC. BTW, don't forget yer earplugs,tonite....
protect that sense in you that should be more perfect than any other. Cheers~

Whilst still on the subject of the 'Ravenwoman' I have found another alledged incidence of her behaviour that Beethoven got wind of that must have drove him out of his mind - namely he heard a rumour that she had offered herself 'for hire' at a ball in 1816. I don't know if the rumour has been substantiated, but we must judge Beethoven's behaviour on what he believed to be the truth and not on what subsequent research has discovered to be the truth. Bearing this, and the other things I have mentioned, in mind Beethoven's behaviour is understandable.

I left the concert last night in a good mood, but with my less than perfect hearing yet further impaired (no point going if I have to wear ear plugs). The music had a healing effect for the ethos behind it is sincere (in this case just having a good time drinking beer and 'being in the company of ladies'), and the quality of ideas and their execution is beyond comparison in this genre. This is what I ask from music of any kind.

Rod

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 12-05-2000).]

Michael
12-06-2000, 09:33 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
There were two other Beethoven movies
I have seen. One was a Disney film I saw long ago, the other is a children's film called "Beethoven lives Upstair's".

I haven't seen "Beethoven Lives Upstairs" but from what I hear, it is supposed to be very good. The Disney movie is something else, though. It's called "The Magnificent Rebel", it was made in the early sixties, and it makes "Immortal Beloved" look like "Citizen Kane". Beethoven is played by Karl Boehm (not to be confused with the conductor - nor is he likely to be) and among the many sick-making scenes two stand out: that of Beethoven rescuing a stray dog from Napoleon's troops and his befriending of a blind boy. There may be a mention of these things in Thayer/Forbes but I really haven't the energy to look.
I would hate to lose my video copy of this movie; whenever I'm feeling low, it brings a warm glow to my heart. It is filed reverently with my Monty Python collection.

Michael

~Leslie
12-06-2000, 10:47 PM
Boy, Micheal is your tongue ever placed firmly in your cheek. That does it........

Euphony & Serge, the world needs another
Beethoven movie! A really good one.
Immoral Beloved just didnt cut the mustard,
that much in these LvB sites is clear.~

Peter
12-07-2000, 05:05 AM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:


Euphony & Serge, the world needs another
Beethoven movie! A really good one.
Immoral Beloved just didnt cut the mustard,
that much in these LvB sites is clear.~



Exactly Leslie! - see my post on this in the ultimate Beethoven concert thread.


------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-06-2000).]