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Chaszz
03-25-2001, 02:46 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
It came up with a properly underlined URL. All that extra copying not necessary.

Later, after more trial and error: here is an easy way to play and listen to the excerpts from the B Minor Mass:

1. Copy this URL by highlighting it with your mouse, then click the right mouse button and click on Copy:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Gloria4.mp3

2. Open Quicktime Player or Real Player on your system. Open the File menu. In Quicktime, click on Open URL. In Real, click on Open.

3. Using the mouse, put the cursor on the address space, click the right button, and click Paste. The URL will be placed in the space. Press the PLAY arrow.

Rod
09-19-2002, 10:22 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
The reason is Bach chose not to move on, as a composer today might who rejected the styles of the 20th C. and looked to the 18th and 19th C.'s as his/her anchor, which some do. Bach was quite aware of the simplification of melodic line going on around him, and rejected it. When he was taking one of his sons to hear an opera, he said, "Come, Friedmann, let us go hear the pretty tunes."

While this is certainly too broad an indictment of opera (perhaps similar in its way to Rod's blanket attitudes), it does give an indication of Bach's priorities.
And NO, this doesn't mean there is not plenty of powerful emotion in his music.

I've continued this topic as a seperate item from the 'Quote of the day' chain as one was needed for it. Your story about Bach and the opera is interesting. But your assessment states you think this was a kind of put down of opera - if so why was he going to the opera in the first place? regardless It does imply that composing 'pretty tunes' (ie conventional secular music) was not in his job description and he stuck to that.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 19, 2002).]

Chaszz
09-19-2002, 10:57 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I've continued this topic as a seperate item from the 'Quote of the day' chain as one was needed for it. Your story about Bach and the opera is interesting. But your assessment implies you think this was a kind of put down - if so why was he going to the opera in the first place? regardless It does imply that composing 'pretty tunes' (ie conventional secular music) was not in his job description and he stuck to that.



This discussion certainly enlivens my work day, which helpfully is a bit light on required work right now.

I don't know why Bach went to the opera, but I would assume he wanted to hear what was being done, and to educate his children.
By the time he came to be cantor at Leipzig, his job description did not include secular music, but he was in spare time a contributing member of a Collegium Musicum which held weekly secular concerts in coffeehouses. Before that, when he was music director at Cothen, he wrote much secular music, including one of the prettiest of pretty tunes, the so-called Air for the G String from one of his four Orchestral Suites, which are full of beautiful melodies.

I expect he dismissed opera because he felt that all those large vocal and instrumental resources would have been better put to religious use, when his own canata masterpieces were being amateurishly sung by eighth graders. However, as an agnostic/atheist, I myself have no problem in appreciating the emotion in his religious music without feeling religious about it.
Nor the emotion in his secular concerti and suites.

Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.

(I do love other things by Handel, and will be in the future be trying his oratorios which you have championed).

But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself. I cannot reject the testimony of legions of experts and listeners who praise Handel's concerti; you can those legions who praise Bach. And Mozart. And Schubert. And Wagner. And probably Brahms, Bruckner, and many others.

Rod
09-19-2002, 11:26 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.


I can't believe you can say the above, you must have heard the Handel played by some wretched modern instrument chamber orchestra. Get your mp3s out and I have no doubt I'd demolish you on this point.


Originally posted by Chaszz:


But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself.



I see the lack in Bach compared to Beethoven and Handel. You can't taste the sugar in your tea when you've had a mouthfull of honey!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
09-19-2002, 11:47 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
You could say the same for Mozart and even Beethoven, as Rod I know will agree that Beethoven was a Classical composer not a Romantic! Weber 'moved on', but he wasn't as great as Beethoven



Handel was in some respects a conservative, like Beethoven he was happy to expand and make the most of existing, forms rather than follow the latest Vivaldian trend (or Weberian!), as can be seen with his op6 concerti. Handel made good use of the best of what he heard around Europe and thus his music is enfused with Italian, French, English and German influences, but the musical structures themselves are conservative for the time.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-19-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I see the lack in Bach compared to Beethoven and Handel. You can't taste the sugar in your tea when you've had a mouthfull of honey!



There is plenty of honey in Bach, as I will demonstrate when I learn to upload MP3s. (This will not be too soon, as I have other things to learn on this new computer which take priority. Also I so gorged myself on Bach in my younger years that I have mostly LPs and not CDs of his works, having been busy with other musicians of late. I would not know where to begin finding the best Bach interpretations, being more concerned with the best interpretations of Wagner lately. But if the Mass I ordered is decent, I will upload some movements).

However, as the saying goes, you can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink. Can you admit, even in theory, that there are beauties in any art form to which a particular person may be insensitive?

Of course you are curiously hampered in that you revere only 2 composers. Appreciating a bunch of composers, I can live with an indifference to Schumann and say to myself, well, I just don't get it. Its very hard for you because you get so little.

As a painter, I love many painters but not Rubens. However, a painter I revere, Cezanne, loved Rubens, and so did and do many other art lovers. So I would never deny that Rubens is most probably great. Just that I lack the ability to appreciate him. I would never suggest having a duel between Rubens and Titian on a website in an attempt to prove Rubens worthless.

So again, can you admit, even if only as a possibility, that perception and not quality may be what is involved here?

Rod
09-19-2002, 11:59 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

So again, can you admit, even if only as a possibility, that perception and not quality may be what is involved here?

Sir, this question is a slurr on my very good name!!!

I have a saying - 'the proof is in the hearing'. Sort out your computer set up.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-20-2002, 12:27 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Sir, this question is a slurr on my very good name!!!

I have a saying - 'the proof is in the hearing'. Sort out your computer set up.



We have an answer to my question at last. I thought you might take it as a personal affront, although I did not mean it that way.

As I said, I have other important computer priorities for awhile. In the meantime I would welcome hearing Handel choruses from the oratorios, or op. 6, if you care to oblige.

Rod
09-20-2002, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
We have an answer to my question at last. I thought you might take it as a personal affront, although I did not mean it that way.

As I said, I have other important computer priorities for awhile. In the meantime I would welcome hearing Handel choruses from the oratorios, or op. 6, if you care to oblige.

Well, I was just kidding about the affront, slightly...

I'll stick I few things on-line in due course.



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
09-20-2002, 08:43 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
This discussion certainly enlivens my work day, which helpfully is a bit light on required work right now.


Actually I have listened to Handel's concerti grosso off and on for years and not been moved by them. I heard one on the radio the other night and tried hard, but could not get much from it. The difference is, I take the testimony of others seriously and realize it is my lack, not Handel's. But I prefer any Bach orchestral suite or concerto, including the Brandenburgs, to Handel's concerti grosso; and I don't consider the Brandenburgs anywhere near the greatest of Bach's output.

But as I say, and THIS is the crux of my argument to which you have not yet responded: I see the lack in myself, not Handel, whereas you see the lack in Bach, not yourself. I cannot reject the testimony of legions of experts and listeners who praise Handel's concerti; you can those legions who praise Bach. And Mozart. And Schubert. And Wagner. And probably Brahms, Bruckner, and many others.



I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

Rod
09-20-2002, 09:23 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

Well, Beethoven made himelf King of a medium he initially had little interest in. He found the traditional manner of fugue limiting and worthy primarily as excercises - which is interresting considering his exposure to Bach's fugues. His acceptance of the fugue in later life seems only to occur when he allowed himself basically to do what he liked with the form, as opposed to a 'strict' fugue - which is more in line with Handel's approach.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-20-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

Chaszz
09-20-2002, 10:45 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
I myself prefer the Handel Concerti Grosso for the same reasons that Rod does. I get little emotional impact from Bach's orchestral output. But if I listen to the organ music and the fugal writing in particular I find Bach superior to Handel. (Although I can think of some powerful examples of Handel's fugal writing as well.) But nothing turns me on more than when Beethoven take a fugal approach in one of his own works.

I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.

Peter
09-21-2002, 01:38 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.


I agree with every word of this!

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
09-21-2002, 07:23 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I agree with every word of this!



Well, has not one of you got the web space to present this last movment? I'd like to hear it. I was listening to a few disks last night to chose some tracks to turn into mp3s but it was extremely difficult to chose. I decided on some church music which Handel wrote relatively little of, but perhaps would be more relevance considering the nature of Bach's output. I have his complete Carmelite Vespas which make up about 35 'movements' and I couldn't choose any 'stand out' tracks, such is the consistancy of quality, at the age of just circa 22. But I'll present a representative selection from these Vespas next week, about 3 pieces, not too long. The solo singing is perfect for this type of music, which connects with the issue of sopranos we discussed earlier. Then maybe some instrumental stuff and then a few chorus's and arias from the big works.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
09-22-2002, 12:28 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Well, has not one of you got the web space to present this last movment? I'd like to hear it. I was listening to a few disks last night to chose some tracks to turn into mp3s but it was extremely difficult to chose. I decided on some church music which Handel wrote relatively little of, but perhaps would be more relevance considering the nature of Bach's output. I have his complete Carmelite Vespas which make up about 35 'movements' and I couldn't choose any 'stand out' tracks, such is the consistancy of quality, at the age of just circa 22. But I'll present a representative selection from these Vespas next week, about 3 pieces, not too long. The solo singing is perfect for this type of music, which connects with the issue of sopranos we discussed earlier. Then maybe some instrumental stuff and then a few chorus's and arias from the big works.



Unfortunately my web space is not enough - I have an excellent recording with none other than Jordi Savall and Le Concert des Nations who writes "In fact the mass in B minor, the Musical offering and the Art of fugue together form a perfect syntheseis of Bach's skill and genius in the art of musical composition, particularly in counterpoint as well as his phenomenal capacity for invention and extraordinary sense of structure, form and number. These masterpieces overcome the most rigorous challenges, whilst never sacrificing the expressive quality and musical eloquence which even in his most elaborate and complex passages, provide the unbroken thread of Bach's musical discourse.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Sorrano
09-22-2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I have never heard a more sublime fugue than the final movment of Bach's Musical Offering, with its beautiful, unearthly harmonic progressions. This is an example of one of those works by older artists which rise to new and unprecedented heights.

I must admit that I've tried but cannot react to Bach's Art of Fugue. This is one of those works which I think that either it is praised unjustly or something is lacking in myself. But I think the Musical Offering is sublime, no other word will do, and the final movement most of all.


It may be that the final movement is less than emotionally stimulating, but my primary interest in fugues and contrapuntal writing is more intellectual than emotional. Thus, when I listen to the fugues in Beethoven's later works I am especially interested because I have both intellectual stimulus as well as emotional. I find Bach to be more intellectual than emotional, in fact I think he could have been a great mathmatician had he chosen that vocation.

Sorrano
09-22-2002, 03:24 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Well, Beethoven made himelf King of a medium he initially had little interest in. He found the traditional manner of fugue limiting and worthy primarily as excercises - which is interresting considering his exposure to Bach's fugues. His acceptance of the fugue in later life seems only to occur when he allowed himself basically to do what he liked with the form, as opposed to a 'strict' fugue - which is more in line with Handel's approach.





Seems to me that Beethoven did what he liked with all the forms. His complete understanding of music form exceeds my small comprehension.

Rod
09-25-2002, 12:18 AM
Ok here's your first installment, they'll be on line for two days before I replace them, so you'll have to be quick. This is early stuff from the Vespers I talked about when H was 22. I've got a few more similar vocal pieces to come next, but be QUICK about downloading. You lucky people you...

This is from Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit1.mp3)

From Saeviat tellus: Saeviat1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Saeviat1.mp3)

Saeviat2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Saeviat2.mp3)

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 24, 2002).]

John Rasmussen
09-25-2002, 01:36 AM
I just tuned in and haven't had a chance to read all responses thoroughly. But here are my thoughts:

I love Bach and Handel equally, but for different reasons. Handel's music is passionate and showy (in the best sense), while Bach's is deep and thoughtful. One thing I've noticed, however, is that Bach's music is thoroughly written out with no room for improvisation, while Handel follows the earlier tradition of sketchy writing that leaves room for performers' additions. Therefore someone who performs Handel must be both creative and re-creative, while Bach responds well to a more literal reading.

Few performers really let themselves go when performing Handel, whether for reverence or fear of being inauthentic. Even the otherwise magnificent Academy of Ancient Music recordings are at fault here. That's why so many Handel recordings are unsatisfactory. (Many Bach recordings are unsatisfactory too, but his music is so well-constructed it can usually survive any treatment if the notes are there.)

Perhaps our cry should be, "more passionate, creative performances!"

Chaszz
09-25-2002, 02:14 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Ok here's your first installment, they'll be on line for two days before I replace them, so you'll have to be quick. This is early stuff from the Vespers I talked about when H was 22. I've got a few more similar vocal pieces to come next, but be QUICK about downloading. You lucky people you...

This is from Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit1.mp3)

From Saeviat tellus: Saeviat1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Saeviat1.mp3)

Saeviat2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Saeviat2.mp3)



These are very fine.

Rod
09-25-2002, 03:48 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
These are very fine.



I'm releaved you think so, these are as near perfect performances as you could reasonably expect. Dixit Dominus in particular is a masterpiece, I've got another section to download from it but I ran out of space, you'll hear it soon. The tracks are from a 2 disk recording on Virgin Veritas label 'Handel Carmelite Vespers' with the Taverner Choir and Orchestra.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 25, 2002).]

Rod
09-25-2002, 04:02 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
It may be that the final movement is less than emotionally stimulating, but my primary interest in fugues and contrapuntal writing is more intellectual than emotional. Thus, when I listen to the fugues in Beethoven's later works I am especially interested because I have both intellectual stimulus as well as emotional. I find Bach to be more intellectual than emotional, in fact I think he could have been a great mathmatician had he chosen that vocation.

This is by and large my own impression of Bach. I am continually surprised when I read the term 'sprtitual' connected with Bach and that this spirituality is not found in Handel, whereas from hearing I would say if anything ther reverse is the case. The extreme 'intellectuallity' in Bach often makes the music sound somewhat dry and emotionally detached to my ears. Yet I have friends who are mezmerised by it, but think or know little of Handel. Strange indeed.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
09-25-2002, 04:13 PM
Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I just tuned in and haven't had a chance to read all responses thoroughly. But here are my thoughts:

I love Bach and Handel equally, but for different reasons. Handel's music is passionate and showy (in the best sense), while Bach's is deep and thoughtful. One thing I've noticed, however, is that Bach's music is thoroughly written out with no room for improvisation, while Handel follows the earlier tradition of sketchy writing that leaves room for performers' additions. Therefore someone who performs Handel must be both creative and re-creative, while Bach responds well to a more literal reading.

Few performers really let themselves go when performing Handel, whether for reverence or fear of being inauthentic. Even the otherwise magnificent Academy of Ancient Music recordings are at fault here. That's why so many Handel recordings are unsatisfactory. (Many Bach recordings are unsatisfactory too, but his music is so well-constructed it can usually survive any treatment if the notes are there.)

Perhaps our cry should be, "more passionate, creative performances!"

I agree Handel leaves room for the soloists invention in the sonatas, but in any stage music the singers would naturally add their own embellishments. But in practise I would recommend only the minimum 'additions' be used as their overuse can too easily destroy the overall effect. The better the singer the less additions they need.

I'd like to know which recordings by the AAM you are referring too. I agree all Handel's music is by nature dramatic, but we surely don't need the hysterics we see in Romantic opera?


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 25, 2002).]

Peter
09-25-2002, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
This is by and large my own impression of Bach. I am continually surprised when I read the term 'sprtitual' connected with Bach and that this spirituality is not found in Handel, whereas from hearing I would say if anything ther reverse is the case. The extreme 'intellectuallity' in Bach often makes the music sound somewhat dry and emotionally detached to my ears. Yet I have friends who are mezmerised by it, but think or know little of Handel. Strange indeed.




It isn't strange - What is strange is your not appreciating the spirituality and emotional depth of a work like the St.Matthew passion. Wonderful arias such as the contralto 'Have mercy, Lord on me' with Violin obligato, 'see ye the saviour's outstretched hands' or the soprano 'For love my saviour now is dying' or the bass 'at evening, hour of calm and peace'. The chorales are incredibly moving such as 'be near me lord when dying' sung pianissimo. These are just a few examples of a powerful score rich in emotion and spirituality.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
09-25-2002, 06:42 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
It isn't strange - What is strange is your not appreciating the spirituality and emotional depth of a work like the St.Matthew passion. Wonderful arias such as the contralto 'Have mercy, Lord on me' with Violin obligato, 'see ye the saviour's outstretched hands' or the soprano 'For love my saviour now is dying' or the bass 'at evening, hour of calm and peace'. The chorales are incredibly moving such as 'be near me lord when dying' sung pianissimo. These are just a few examples of a powerful score rich in emotion and spirituality.



Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-25-2002, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.

Chaszz
09-25-2002, 07:30 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:


(I hit enter just above without having written anything).

Rod, I like the Handel works you uploaded.

I heard a performance of Handel's Opus 6 Concerto Grosso No. 11 last night by the Orpehus Chamber Orchestra. Do they qualify as good interpreters? It seemed a lively and skilled performance. I must admit it didn't move me. It seemed harmonically uninspired, relying on melodies based on a relatively few predictable chords and modulations. The last movement seemed overly long and didn't seem to develop. I would prefer most any of Bach's concertos, grosso or solo, to this, except for two or three.

But as I said before, I've been hearing these Opus 6 concerti all my life without much reaction. Perhaps it is me and not the music as I know they are honored greatly by others.

I have some movements from the Mass in B Minor to upload. My new computer is not hooked up to the net yet but I'll try with my old computer. I think I know how to "rip" the music from CD to MP3 on my hard disk. Then what do I do with the MP3? Do I need to ask my internet service provider for space and help? Or is there another way to do it? Thanks.

Peter
09-25-2002, 09:28 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Fair enough if that's what you believe, but we can continue saying what we like and don't like but the conversation will quickly become tiresome, especially for those who have not heard the music in question, which is why I provided some music for comparative assessment. I look forward to reading your impressions of these MP3s.



I think you'll have to search this forum far and wide to find any real criticism of Handel from me. You are attacking Bach (as usual), whereas I have nothing but praise for Handel - that is the difference. I have Dixit Dominus already and it is fine - the excerpt from 'Saeviat tellus' is quite beautiful. Do you know the Bach pieces from the St.Matthew passion I mentioned, or how about the wonderful Magnificat or Christmas Oratorio, or the aria 'agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi' from the B minor mass? Unfortunately I hardly have enough web space left to provide any mp3s. I agree that some of Bach's music such as the Art of Fugue and some of the 48 are academic and intellectual exercises, they were intended to be so.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
09-25-2002, 10:43 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I think you'll have to search this forum far and wide to find any real criticism of Handel from me. You are attacking Bach (as usual), whereas I have nothing but praise for Handel - that is the difference. I have Dixit Dominus already and it is fine - the excerpt from 'Saeviat tellus' is quite beautiful. Do you know the Bach pieces from the St.Matthew passion I mentioned, or how about the wonderful Magnificat or Christmas Oratorio, or the aria 'agnus dei, qui tollis peccata mundi' from the B minor mass? Unfortunately I hardly have enough web space left to provide any mp3s. I agree that some of Bach's music such as the Art of Fugue and some of the 48 are academic and intellectual exercises, they were intended to be so.



I have accepted your position concerning Bach but I was becoming aware that we were running in circles - hence my introduction of some mp3s for discussion. I have only 1 Bach work in my collection that is nice but not as nice as these works I present here. If anyone can upload something I would be more than interested to listen to it.

I hope you download the beautifull Dixit Dominus track, and the other one I will present shortly because this is by far the best available. It makes Gardiners efforts with the piece look utterly lame and dull.

I have heard so much Bach music but where it comes from I usually forget for it usually fails to hold my interest. Did you see the Passion they had on TV at earlier this year? It met with critical acclaim but in all seriousness i found the whole thing utterly depressing.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
09-25-2002, 10:48 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
(I hit enter just above without having written anything).

Rod, I like the Handel works you uploaded.

I heard a performance of Handel's Opus 6 Concerto Grosso No. 11 last night by the Orpehus Chamber Orchestra. Do they qualify as good interpreters? It seemed a lively and skilled performance. I must admit it didn't move me. It seemed harmonically uninspired, relying on melodies based on a relatively few predictable chords and modulations. The last movement seemed overly long and didn't seem to develop. I would prefer most any of Bach's concertos, grosso or solo, to this, except for two or three.

But as I said before, I've been hearing these Opus 6 concerti all my life without much reaction. Perhaps it is me and not the music as I know they are honored greatly by others.

I have some movements from the Mass in B Minor to upload. My new computer is not hooked up to the net yet but I'll try with my old computer. I think I know how to "rip" the music from CD to MP3 on my hard disk. Then what do I do with the MP3? Do I need to ask my internet service provider for space and help? Or is there another way to do it? Thanks.

I do not at all rate the Orpheus CO Chaszz. For a start they are a modern instrument ensemble, which is a handicap before they even play a note, and from what I've head they are lack lustre performers. Get the version on Decca by the Handel and Haydn Society/ Hogwood - this is a superb set and good value. It is the simplicity of much of the music that makes it so profound....in the right hands!


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-25-2002, 11:03 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I do not at all rate the Orpheus CO Chaszz. For a start they are a modern instrument ensemble, which is a handicap before they even play a note, and from what I've head they are lack lustre performers. Get the version on Decca by the Handel and Haydn Society/ Hogwood - this is a superb set and good value. It is the simplicity of much of the music that makes it so profound....in the right hands!



Fine. Can you give me any advice on uploading something to here?

Rod
09-25-2002, 11:31 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

Fine. Can you give me any advice on uploading something to here?



Presuming you use at least Windows 98, there should be an upload wizzard in the internet utilities section of the toolbar menus. I hope you've got some good tracks, because I've deliberately started off lightly, with '1st period' Handel. I haven't got serious yet!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-25-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Presuming you use at least Windows 98, there should be an upload wizzard in the internet utilities section of the toolbar menus. I hope you've got some good tracks, because I've deliberately started off lightly, with '1st period' Handel. I haven't got serious yet!



My old machine has Windows 95 so that's no good. For my new machine I have to buy a router so I can share my wife's highspeed DSL connection, so that's at least a week or two off. In the event, what will I tell the Wizard for a website to load to, the URL that is on my address line when I'm on this page?

And please could you upload a favorite movement or two from the Hogwood Op. 6 you recommend, so I don't have to spend $20.00 for it if I may not like it?

And please answer the question on the address to upload to, while I have your attention on that.

Chris
09-26-2002, 04:38 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
My old machine has Windows 95 so that's no good. For my new machine I have to buy a router so I can share my wife's highspeed DSL connection, so that's at least a week or two off.

Forget all that upload wizard nonsense - you can use Internet Explorer or a program called ftp, which is on all Windows 95 machines.

Also, why would you buy a router for Internet connection sharing? That's a ridiculously expensive way to get the job done.

John Rasmussen
09-26-2002, 10:53 AM
Rod, the AAM performance I referred to was the Messiah recording from 1980. It's a little uneven re soloists' additions; David Thomas adds the least, while Paul Elliott and Emma Kirkby add some fine improvisations. (Though maybe my ears are prejudiced, for I don't much like Mr. Thomas's excessive vibrato and am captivated by Mr. Elliott's and Miss Kirkby's silvery, vibrato-less voices.)

But you're right that we don't need Romantic hysteria. In fact, the AAM recording shows just how moving Handel can be in his original instrumentation. (I did say it was magnificent! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif)

Rod
09-26-2002, 06:25 PM
Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Rod, the AAM performance I referred to was the Messiah recording from 1980. It's a little uneven re soloists' additions; David Thomas adds the least, while Paul Elliott and Emma Kirkby add some fine improvisations. (Though maybe my ears are prejudiced, for I don't much like Mr. Thomas's excessive vibrato and am captivated by Mr. Elliott's and Miss Kirkby's silvery, vibrato-less voices.)

But you're right that we don't need Romantic hysteria. In fact, the AAM recording shows just how moving Handel can be in his original instrumentation. (I did say it was magnificent! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif)

I haven't heard this version, but the likes of Hogwood and Kirkby are always pretty reliable with Handel. The best version I have is by the English Concert and Choir with Pinnock on Archiv label. Good rhythms and sumptuous sound. Singing is good to tollerable. I'm not a fan of von Otter but she is reasonably restrained here.

It occured to me that it would be logical to present some of Handel's German language music, from his '9 German Arias' and Brocke's Passion. I don't know why I didn't think of this before.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
09-26-2002, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Forget all that upload wizard nonsense - you can use Internet Explorer or a program called ftp, which is on all Windows 95 machines.

Also, why would you buy a router for Internet connection sharing? That's a ridiculously expensive way to get the job done.

This is what the phone co. which hosts the DSL line told me to do. The router was $135.

I'll try the ftp program at some point soon.

Rod
09-26-2002, 07:12 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Forget all that upload wizard nonsense


It's not nonsense Chris, I've used it myself without trouble.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
09-26-2002, 08:30 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Forget all that upload wizard nonsense - you can use Internet Explorer or a program called ftp, which is on all Windows 95 machines.

Also, why would you buy a router for Internet connection sharing? That's a ridiculously expensive way to get the job done.

For $50 US dollars you can get a decent router that will not only enable one to share the Internet connection but will also serve as a good firewall. A 4-port D-Link router would serve very nicely and they are relatively inexpensive. That way you don't have to keep one computer on all the time just to be able to access it from another.

Sorrano
09-26-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
This is by and large my own impression of Bach. I am continually surprised when I read the term 'sprtitual' connected with Bach and that this spirituality is not found in Handel, whereas from hearing I would say if anything ther reverse is the case. The extreme 'intellectuallity' in Bach often makes the music sound somewhat dry and emotionally detached to my ears. Yet I have friends who are mezmerised by it, but think or know little of Handel. Strange indeed.





You will find me strange, as well. I have much less interest in Bach's choral/vocal works (mostly the vocal works) than I do in his keyboard (including and especially organ) works. Last night I listened to a couple of inventions and sinfonies on the radio and was very satisfied by these academic/intellectual works. I got more out of them than I do the sacred vocal works. With Handel I have few complaints and I agree whole-heartedly that the majority of his works that I've listened to are much less boring on the whole than what I've listened to of Bach (minus the fugues and organ works--these are the pinnacle of the Baroque period for me).

Rod
09-27-2002, 12:52 AM
Here are the remainder of the stuff I tried to upload earler. Saeviat tellus 1 and 2 have now been removed, but the Dixit1 track is still there:

From Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit1.mp3)

Dixit2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit2.mp3)

Also from this period, an aria from the serenate Aci, Galatea e Polifemo in H's typical ravishing style, with a short recitative:
Acis.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Acis.mp3)

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 26, 2002).]

Chris
09-27-2002, 11:42 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
It's not nonsense Chris, I've used it myself without trouble.


I expect you have, but it's just not necessary, and so there was no reason for him to wait until he had access to a machine with it.

Chris
09-27-2002, 11:59 AM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
For $50 US dollars you can get a decent router that will not only enable one to share the Internet connection but will also serve as a good firewall. A 4-port D-Link router would serve very nicely and they are relatively inexpensive. That way you don't have to keep one computer on all the time just to be able to access it from another.

I was just thinking more along the lines of spending something like zero dollars. You gotta save up the money in your computer budget to upgrade your graphics card every other week so you can play the latest games http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/cool.gif

Peter
09-27-2002, 05:35 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Also from this period, an aria from the serenate Aci, Galatea e Polifemo in H's typical ravishing style, with a short recitative:
[/URL]



Interesting and possibly ravishing, but not as deeply emotional or moving as the contralto aria 'Have mercy, Lord on me' from the Matthew passion. Does anyone have the ability to upload this for Rod to hear? Remember it must be on authentic instruments or he'll dismiss it outright!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
09-27-2002, 05:38 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

And please could you upload a favorite movement or two from the Hogwood Op. 6 you recommend, so I don't have to spend $20.00 for it if I may not like it?


I would have though you would have realised by now that if Rod says 'it's good', IT'S GOOD!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
09-27-2002, 05:43 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting and possibly ravishing, but not as deeply emotional or moving as the contralto aria 'Have mercy, Lord on me' from the Matthew passion. Does anyone have the ability to upload this for Rod to hear? Remember it must be on authentic instruments or he'll dismiss it outright!



Well, this is a secular piece Peter, and this standard is maintained throughout, with a depth of expression I have not heard from other such pieces at this time from other men. By ravishing I meant a more romantic (small r!) form of emotion rather than religious devotion. This was written when H was 23, when H was the best composer in all Italy! As I said I've not got to the serious stuff yet Peter, not by a long way.

I'd be interested to know how the Dixit mp3s compare with your own previous experiences of the piece?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 27, 2002).]

Peter
09-27-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Well, this is a secular piece Peter, and this standard is maintained throughout, with a depth of expression I have not heard from other such pieces at this time from other men. By ravishing I meant a more romantic (small r!) form of emotion rather than religious devotion. This was written when H was 23, when H was the best composer in all Italy! As I said I've not got to the serious stuff yet Peter, not by a long way.

I'd be interested to know how the Dixit mp3s compare with your own previous experiences of the piece?



You'll have to wait till Sunday for that - I have no doubt as to the greatness of the music you are uploading, you do not need to convince me!! It is you who need convincing about Bach!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Sorrano
09-27-2002, 08:29 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
I was just thinking more along the lines of spending something like zero dollars. You gotta save up the money in your computer budget to upgrade your graphics card every other week so you can play the latest games http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/cool.gif

Ain't that the truth! Good point.

Rod
09-27-2002, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
You'll have to wait till Sunday for that - I have no doubt as to the greatness of the music you are uploading, you do not need to convince me!! It is you who need convincing about Bach!



The thing is Peter, I've already heard alot of Bach's output. He may have some hits, but I've heard a lot of average sounding stuff. Yet every piece from Handel is full of interesting things.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 27, 2002).]

Chaszz
09-28-2002, 01:19 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting and possibly ravishing, but not as deeply emotional or moving as the contralto aria 'Have mercy, Lord on me' from the Matthew passion. Does anyone have the ability to upload this for Rod to hear? Remember it must be on authentic instruments or he'll dismiss it outright!



I don't have this, but have some choruses from the B Minor Mass that I'll try to upload using my Windows 95 machine this weekend IF I get my other chores finished.
Though I haven't tried it yet, it still seems to me that I'm going to have to give it an address to FTP up to. Where do I get this address? Does my Internet Service Provider or something like Yahoo have to give me space 'up there'?

Chaszz
09-28-2002, 02:53 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Here are the remainder of the stuff I tried to upload earler. Saeviat tellus 1 and 2 have now been removed, but the Dixit1 track is still there:

From Dixit Dominus: Dixit1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit1.mp3)

Dixit2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Dixit2.mp3)

Also from this period, an aria from the serenate Aci, Galatea e Polifemo in H's typical ravishing style, with a short recitative:
Acis.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Acis.mp3)



I like the first and last of these three very much. Dixit 2, the second piece, although the sound of the singing and instruments was beautiful, did not seem to me to have much original or involving about it musically -- sort of a commonplace chord progression and melody. I find this sometimes true of Handel, e.g., the Opus 6. Of course it could be my lack of comprehension.

But can one's love for an adored being blind one to his/her sometime imperfections? As the saying goes, even Homer nods sometimes.

Joy
09-28-2002, 03:22 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Interesting and possibly ravishing, but not as deeply emotional or moving as the contralto aria 'Have mercy, Lord on me' from the Matthew passion.



I agree with you. Spiritual and emotional are only two words to describe this great piece. The Mass in B minor another great work which I have you to thank for reminding me to get this monumental piece out of storage and listen to it again!

Joy

Rod
09-28-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I like the first and last of these three very much. Dixit 2, the second piece, although the sound of the singing and instruments was beautiful, did not seem to me to have much original or involving about it musically -- sort of a commonplace chord progression and melody. I find this sometimes true of Handel, e.g., the Opus 6. Of course it could be my lack of comprehension.

But can one's love for an adored being blind one to his/her sometime imperfections? As the saying goes, even Homer nods sometimes.



Well, the piece (Dixit2) has an irresistable drive achieved by the simplest of means, it is this simple driving momentum that is the whole point of the first section. The remainder has plenty of things to hold the interest as far as I am concerned. Perhaps you are not playing it loud enough for these things to become apparent?!

That you question the quality of op6 indicates that indeed Homer will on occasion 'nod'. But he will be continuously asleep if he listens to the Orpheus CO! Much of Handel's best music involves simple two part harmony.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited September 28, 2002).]

Chaszz
09-30-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Joy:
I agree with you. Spiritual and emotional are only two words to describe this great piece. The Mass in B minor another great work which I have you to thank for reminding me to get this monumental piece out of storage and listen to it again!

Joy



Finally here are two choruses from the Mass in B Minor, the first two in the Gloria section. I've had some difficulty uploading correctly so I hope it plays properly, my apologies if not. I shall keep trying to improve. It is now 'attached' to Real Player
on my computer and plays better than before when it used QuickTime. If it starts for you in QuickTime and runs into trouble, try moving the ball forward past the trouble spot, if this doesn't work my apologies once again.

If using Real it may have to download to your computer first, which should only take a moment if you have a high speed connection. Otherwise, you may not want to wait.

You need to copy the URL and paste it into your Address line, then press enter. If you want to maintain your place on the Beethoven web site while listening, then first click on File at upper left, slide the mouse pointer over New, then slide to the right and click on Window. This will open a duplicate window where you can paste the URL into the Address line, then press Enter, and it will open while you still have your original Beethoven page open in the other window.

Sorry, all this extra bother is the best I can do at present, after a weekend of trial and error. I shall keep at it.

Those who find JS Bach lacking in emotion will I hope find something of value here:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Bach%20-%20Gloria,%20Et%20in%20terra%20pax.mp3

Chaszz
09-30-2002, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
{
Sorry, all this extra bother is the best I can do at present, after a weekend of trial and error. I shall keep at it.

[/B]

It came up with a properly underlined URL. All that extra copying not necessary.

Chris
10-01-2002, 08:08 AM
Bump to account for time bug.

Joy
10-01-2002, 10:26 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
Later, after more trial and error: here is an easy way to play and listen to the excerpts from the B Minor Mass:

1. Copy this URL by highlighting it with your mouse, then click the right mouse button and click on Copy:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Gloria4.mp3

2. Open Quicktime Player or Real Player on your system. Open the File menu. In Quicktime, click on Open URL. In Real, click on Open.

3. Using the mouse, put the cursor on the address space, click the right button, and click Paste. The URL will be placed in the space. Press the PLAY arrow.

Thanks Chaszzz. I will definitely give this a listen!

Joy

Rod
10-02-2002, 07:11 PM
Here are two of Handel's arias from the 'Handel 9 German Arias' CD on Capriccio label, these are really excellent:

Aria1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria1.mp3)

Aria2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria2.mp3)

I've only had time to listen to about 1 minute of the Bach Gloria, will report when I've had a good listen.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 02, 2002).]

Chaszz
10-02-2002, 08:00 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Here are two of Handel's arias from the 'Handel 9 German Arias' CD on Capriccio label, these are really excellent:

Aria1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria1.mp3)

Aria2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria2.mp3)

I've only had time to listen to about 1 minute of the Bach Gloria, will report when I've had a good listen.



I shall refrain from listening to any more Handel until some Bach gets listened to.

Rod
10-02-2002, 10:10 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall refrain from listening to any more Handel until some Bach gets listened to.

Ok I'll give you my first impression of the intro. Compared to Handels big choruses I was surprised at the lack of any real melody, or 'anthem', for this section at least. As is typical with Bach we are presented with an exercise in polyphony that has little melodic strength. But I'll have a better idea when I've heard the whole piece. People will be crazy not to listen to the latest pieces I have presented.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
10-04-2002, 01:10 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall refrain from listening to any more Handel until some Bach gets listened to.

Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 03, 2002).]

Chaszz
10-04-2002, 03:21 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?



Well, you have 'damned it with faint praise' but then that is more than I expected. I'll respond immediately that I hear strong emotion and a lot of musical invention in these 2 choruses, and the main melody of each has been going thru my head repeatedly since I listened to them last before putting them up to the web. Polyphony does not hide or deny melody, just provides more of it.
Is it possible you are not a fan of polyphony in general?

To me, the development of the main melody in each chorus is very emotional and organic, right up to the beautiful climax in each. The trumpets provide the most emotion for me.

I don't believe anyone else has listened to these, but they don't seem to be pounding down the gates for your Handel selections either. Perhaps only Beethoven and Mozart are the real crowd pleasers here.

I'll listen to your Handel arias and report my opinion. I suspect that you hear things in Handel's simplicity which escape me. And I think likewise, when a melody is elaborated into polyphony, it may make your eyes glaze over, as they say.

Nonetheless, I have some even better choruses by Bach to continue with later.

Chaszz
10-04-2002, 08:03 PM
[/B]

The two choruses of the Bach Gloria from the B Minor Mass will be avaialble today for the last day. Tomorrow I'll replace them with something else.


------------------

spaceray
10-04-2002, 11:11 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Ok I've given it a good listening to. Listening all the way through at a reasonable volume it's got more of a swing to it than I first thought, but it ultimately lacks the personal touch one experiences with Handel, that is, for however well written it is, it lacks character and real musical invention. That is typical Bach to my ears. Your mp3 sounds is a little jumpy though, but I have allowed for that. It's not a bad piece, but I feel little motivation to listen to it again.

I'll give you two real earth shakers from 'Solomon' and something triumphant from 'Israel and Egypt' that you will want to keep! Have you got any solemn choruses for us Chaszz?

Ok then, now I expect nothing but a glowing report about my German Arias, knowing you are a man of honest judgement...

Has anybody else bothered to listen to them?



I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Chaszz
10-04-2002, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Johann Sebastian Bach, from The Mass in B Minor, movements 3 and 4: Gloria: Gloria In Excelsis Deo and Et in Terra Pax. I don't have the CD set with me so will have to give you the artists' names on Monday.

Also these will reman up thru the weekend, and be replaced on Monday, not on Saturday as I previously stated. The URL to play them with is located about a half-dozen messages up.

Chaszz
10-05-2002, 12:31 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Whups, I do have the CD set here in my cabinet. It is the Amor Artis Chorale and the English Chamber Orchestra conducted by Johannes Somary, on Vanuard Classics.

Rod
10-05-2002, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
I've listened to them and loved them but what are they, where are they from and who is singing please.

Presuming you are asking about the Handel pieces, they are from a collection of songs that have become known as the '9 German Arias'. Aria1 is "Susser Blumen Amkbraflocken" HWV 204, Aria2 is "Singe, Seele, Gott zum Preise" HWV 206. The recording I have already mentioned is 'Georg Friedrich Handel Deutche Arien' on Capriccio label, cat. no. 10 767. The singer is Ann Monoyios, the musicians are the Berliner Barock-Compagney.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
10-05-2002, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
The two choruses of the Bach Gloria from the B Minor Mass will be avaialble today for the last day. Tomorrow I'll replace them with something else.




Hey, I'm still waiting for your commentry Chaszz! Lest I regard you silence as an acceptance that I was right all along (and you wouldn't be the first!)?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
10-05-2002, 07:16 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
Polyphony does not hide or deny melody, just provides more of it.
Is it possible you are not a fan of polyphony in general?



The price Bach pays for his obsession with polyphony is a lack of melodic strength and diversity of invention. Sometimes a statement becomes bolder using more simple and varied structures. I suppose the advantage (with Bach's style) is a complete 'unity' to the sound across the piece as a whole. A more homgenous effect. But I prefer a more varied diet! I'm not against polyphony per se, but it sould be used only to the extent that the musicallity of the piece is enhanced and not become the object of the music in itself.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

Peter
10-05-2002, 08:32 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
The price Bach pays for his obsession with polyphony is a lack of melodic strength and diversity of invention. Sometimes a statement becomes bolder using more simple and varied structures. I suppose the advantage is a complete 'unity' to the sound across the piece as a whole. A more homgenous effect. But I prefer a more varied diet! I'm not against polyphony per se, but it sould be used only to the extent that the musicallity of the piece is enhanced and not become the object of the music in itself.



There are plenty of Bach homophonic pieces - air on a G string, the minuet in G or the glorious slow movement from the double violin concerto just to mention a few obvious well known examples - hardly revealing Bach's 'lack of melodic strength'.



------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
10-05-2002, 11:32 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
There are plenty of Bach homophonic pieces - air on a G string, the minuet in G or the glorious slow movement from the double violin concerto just to mention a few obvious well known examples - hardly revealing Bach's 'lack of melodic strength'.



In relation to virtually any Handel composition I stand by my point. I accept Bach was not totally free from other influences, but you cannot deny Bach's association with polyphony. This is evident in the many pieces I have heard, and certainly is the case in general comparison with Handel works. Handel himself is no stranger to this technique, but it is used in a more free manner. With Handel I get a more solid sence of melody and harmony. With Bach I always get the impression of thinner textures.

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it? The pieces I have presented so far are not really stand out stuff, but average stuff. I have had difficulty in selecting stand out pieces. You will be aware there are enough jems in Messiah alone to fill a 'greatest hits' CD - well, you could do the same with most of his other large scale productions too. Which is why I am deliberately not providing anything from Messiah, or the Coronation Anthems or Fireworks music or Water music etc. Ask me for something from ANY other piece at random and I will prove it! This is the level of quality you find in Handel's output, which must have impressed Beethoven.

To put another angle on things, Handel's music simply has such great spirit and nobility, more akin to Beethoven than Bach. So you should not be surprised at my point of view on this matter. I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 05, 2002).]

Peter
10-06-2002, 02:02 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it?

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.

I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.


In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output. By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!



------------------
'Man know thyself'

spaceray
10-06-2002, 03:07 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel. This is why I said before he wrote more good melodies than Schubert, though who here believed it?

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.

I am not saying Bach wrote bad music, I like some pieces, just that his place as the higher of the 'twin peaks' is not justified from what I have heard.


In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output.

' By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!'



What is at Brook St,something Handelian?
Can you say why Handel desired to come to Endland and why he stayed, there were a few uncertian moments after Queen Anne died untill a pension conferred by her was confirmed.But was money the only consideration?
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

John Rasmussen
10-06-2002, 09:17 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

Actually, Handel finally stopped writing Italian operas because they were flopping! Part of the reason for that was an unexpected local hit, John Gay's "The Beggar's Opera." But GFH finally got smart and started setting oratorios in English, of which The Messiah is only the most famous.

John Rasmussen
10-06-2002, 09:29 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
I would have though you would have realised by now that if Rod says 'it's good', IT'S GOOD!


Gee, Rod, are you a great musician or what? Or are you just like me, who have a college degree in music and play several instruments and am a member of a community orchestra and a chamber group? http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

I expect what Rod and Chaszz are dealing with is simply a matter of personal preference, which is something one really can't explain or argue with. "De gustibus non disputandum est."

As for me, as I said before, I love both Bach and Handel, but for different reasons. I have sung both the Messiah and the B minor Mass and love both. I also like much other music, leaning heavily toward the great Romantics and the more intense modern composers. (Gustav Mahler and Edgard Varese are favorites, as is Bela Bartok.) But I'm always looking for the next masterpiece. Several weeks ago I heard a violin concerto by Erich Korngold on the radio, and my reaction was "Why haven't I heard anything by this guy before? He's really good!"

Peter
10-06-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
What is at Brook St,something Handelian?
Can you say why Handel desired to come to Endland and why he stayed, there were a few uncertian moments after Queen Anne died untill a pension conferred by her was confirmed.But was money the only consideration?
Does it seem odd that a German composer writing in the Italian style should become the darling of English opera goers.I didn't think Italian music was going over very well with the English at the time.What changed their minds,the sheer beauty of the music he wrote?

No.25 Brook Street was Handel's London home for the last 36 years of his life. Initially he came to try his luck at Opera and Rinaldo was something of a success. It was the accession to the British throne of the Hanoverian George I (a bizarre choice since he spoke no English, had no liking for England and fifty or so others had a better claim to the throne!)that persuaded Handel to remain in England.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Peter
10-06-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Rod:

Putting it crudely, for every great melody Bach wrote I could supply 10 from Handel.

A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Chaszz
10-07-2002, 10:31 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Here are two of Handel's arias from the 'Handel 9 German Arias' CD on Capriccio label, these are really excellent:

Aria1.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria1.mp3)

Aria2.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Aria2.mp3)




I've listened to each of these three times thru. The performances and the sound are beautiful, but I don't feel the same about the musical content. It simply doesn't really move me. I could offhand name 10 Bach arias which affect me more emotionally, including this one from the Mass in B Minor:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Agnus%20Dei.mp3

It is possible one of the reasons I like it better is the wonderful harmonic progression combined with the melody. Often I simply don't find Handel's chord progressions interesting harmonically. Harmonic creativity married to beautiful melody is also one of the reasons I love Wagner. I must admit that sticking to the old tonic, dominant, subdominant, etc. often makes me find interest lacking in Mozart and Handel. Once in a while I even feel this way with Beethoven, but generally not.

spaceray
10-08-2002, 06:31 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?



From Rinaldo,Scherzano sul tuo volto le grazie vessosette.

Rod
10-08-2002, 07:29 PM
Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Solomon.mp3)


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Judas.mp3)


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Israel.mp3)


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 08, 2002).]

Chaszz
10-08-2002, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Solomon.mp3)


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Judas.mp3)


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Israel.mp3)


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.



These all sound good. I'd like to listen to them a couple more times before commenting more fully.

Rod
10-09-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

At least we've brought another composer into the equation, though the number of 'good melodies' a composer writes is hardly helpful in this context, otherwise Schubert would be greater than Beethoven.


True, but the context that was being discussed at the time was that of melodies.

Originally posted by Peter:

In your opinion - my opinion is that they are two faces of the same peak. Handel undoubtedly has not been given his full due and I agree entirely with you on this. Great as his popular works such as Messiah are, there is finer music to be found in his output. By the way, I paid my homage to Brook Street the other day!


Well most people say this, but when forced the question I can say from experience that most would lean towards Bach. All I can say is that, upon hearing both, I'd rather have a second hearing of the Handel.

[/B][/QUOTE]



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
10-09-2002, 05:49 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
A few years back there was a programme on Handel that featured some operatic duets - all were wonderful, but one in particular was absolutely ravishing, but I can't for the life of me remember what it was! Any ideas or suggestions for cds of Handel duets and arias?



Virtually all the operas have numbers like this. But Julius Ceasar has the best known ones. It is the quality of the operas that has surprised me the most with Handel. I wasn't really expecting it for some reason. But the taste for foreign language productions simply disintegrated in England. And some of the ideosyncrasies of the Italian Opera format became something of a joke.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
10-09-2002, 08:04 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've listened to each of these three times thru. The performances and the sound are beautiful, but I don't feel the same about the musical content. It simply doesn't really move me. I could offhand name 10 Bach arias which affect me more emotionally, including this one from the Mass in B Minor:
http://users.bestweb.net/~chaszz/Agnus%20Dei.mp3

It is possible one of the reasons I like it better is the wonderful harmonic progression combined with the melody. Often I simply don't find Handel's chord progressions interesting harmonically. Harmonic creativity married to beautiful melody is also one of the reasons I love Wagner. I must admit that sticking to the old tonic, dominant, subdominant, etc. often makes me find interest lacking in Mozart and Handel. Once in a while I even feel this way with Beethoven, but generally not.



Well I gave this track you kindly provided a listen. I don't really see how you can compare this with the two Handel arias which are jolly secular chamber pieces, but I suggest that these have an immediacy lacking in the Bach. I haven't uploaded anything this serious sounding yet, that's to come. As I have said before however, I am not surprise that a fan of Romantic music also rates Bach so highly. The unending homogenaity of Bach results inevitably in rather one-dimentional output emotionally, lacking convincing drama or invention. I associate these things with Romantisism. My brother is exactly the same - he like Jazz, Bach and the more sentimental Romantic stuff, but has little time for Beethoven or any of the classical era composers, and he struggles with Handel too if he's not being 'heavy'!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 09, 2002).]

Chaszz
10-09-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Well I gave this track you kindly provided a listen. I don't really see how you can compare this with the two Handel arias which are jolly secular chamber pieces, but I suggest that these have an immediacy lacking in the Bach. I haven't uploaded anything this serious sounding yet, that's to come. As I have said before however, I am not surprise that a fan of Romantic music also rates Bach so highly. The unending homogenaity of Bach results inevitably in rather one-dimentional output emotionally, lacking convincing drama or invention. I associate these things with Romantisism. My brother is exactly the same - he like Jazz, Bach and the more sentimental Romantic stuff, but has little time for Beethoven or any of the classical era composers, and he struggles with Handel too if he's not being 'heavy'!



Well, unlike your brother, I have plenty of time for Beethoven.

Speaking of jazz, one of the great uses of polyphony is in the early New Orleans jazz, although most jazz fans today have little or no regard for it.

I don't find polyphony there or in Bach less immediate or dramatic than Handel. I will be putting up a Bach chorus or two in the near future to illustrate this further.

I still haven't relistened to the Handel choruses but will do it today. I heard Handel's Suite for Keyboard No. 9 last night and liked it very much. I will give him pride of place willingly in this form, as I find Bach's keyboard suites (French and English) boring.

Rod
10-09-2002, 11:38 PM
Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
Gee, Rod, are you a great musician or what? Or are you just like me, who have a college degree in music and play several instruments and am a member of a community orchestra and a chamber group? http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/biggrin.gif


There is no direct connection between musical taste and/or judgement, and academic learing!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
10-10-2002, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Here is some more stuff as promised. Enjoy.

First an earth shaker from 'Solomon' (McCreesh/Gabrielli Concort & Players. Archiv label):

Solomon.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Solomon.mp3)


Who says Handel can't write fugues? Check out the fugue in the overture to 'Judas Macabaeus' (Robert King/Kings Consort and Choir of New College Oxford. Hyperion label):

Judas.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Judas.mp3)


Finaly a chorus celebrating the Egyptians being swallowed by the Red Sea from 'Israel in Egypt' (Parrot/Taverner Choir & Players. Virgin Veritas label).

Israel.mp3 (http://www.frameworks-city.ltd.uk/Israel.mp3)


I've been away fro a couple of days. Will respond to all recent comments in due course.



I've listened to these again.

!. Reminiscent to me of the Hallelujah chorus from Messiah. I also feel the need of more polyphony to increase my enjoyment.

2. Great

3. Reminiscent again of the Hallelujah chorus. Some melodic/dramatic ideas from there get into each of these choruses, or vice versa. Sounds to me like Handel may have not had the wealth of invention that Bach had.

In no case among any of the works by Handel presented on the web site, have I had the urge to listen again after the requisite listening for a comment was done. However, I will buy one of these Oratorios and work at it.

Coming up in a day or two, the incredible Cum Spiritu Sanctu from the Mass in B Minor. On its way, the final movement of the Musical Offering.

Rod
10-10-2002, 04:32 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I've listened to these again.

!. Reminiscent to me of the Hallelujah chorus from Messiah. I also feel the need of more polyphony to increase my enjoyment.

2. Great

3. Reminiscent again of the Hallelujah chorus. Some melodic/dramatic ideas from there get into each of these choruses, or vice versa. Sounds to me like Handel may have not had the wealth of invention that Bach had.

In no case among any of the works by Handel presented on the web site, have I had the urge to listen again after the requisite listening for a comment was done. However, I will buy one of these Oratorios and work at it.

Coming up in a day or two, the incredible Cum Spiritu Sanctu from the Mass in B Minor. On its way, the final movement of the Musical Offering.

I don't really see a connection with the Halleluja chorus in the Solomon piece, but I do in the Israel in Egypt piece which I think was written before Messiah. Handels dynamics are long term in that the effects are spread across many numbers - this you will not appreciate hearing only individual items from each. Bearing in mind your comments I have never felt a strong level of musical invention in Bach's music on a thematic level, it all seems to be in the 'mechanics' of the material - Handel's chorus's are always very memorable compared to Bach's. But then I cannot understand your enthusiasm for Wagner either!

I'd be interested to know the popular opinion so far. Clearly we have two different worlds here.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 10, 2002).]

Chaszz
10-10-2002, 11:25 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
But then I cannot understand your enthusiasm for Wagner either!



In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.

John Rasmussen
10-11-2002, 03:55 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
There is no direct connection between musical taste and/or judgement, and academic learing!



Perhaps not, but there is between taste and/or judgment, and experience (musical or life). Besides, did I say my learning was all academic? Or that it will ever finish?

John Rasmussen
10-11-2002, 04:17 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.

Oh yes, the Siegfried Idyll! Beautiful, and it shows that Wagner could do more than storm as in the Ride of the Valkyries, or be erotic as in much of Tristan und Isolde. Most of Parsifal is in the same manner as the Siegfried Idyll.

Rod
10-11-2002, 03:43 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
In reply to this, I can't resist calling attention to the Wagner music mp3 I've posted under the topic of 'An intrusion' which has only drawn one response so far.
I found myself listening to this piece three times yesterday, even though already thoroughly familiar with it.

I have already listened to it Chaszz!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
10-11-2002, 09:20 PM
[/B][/QUOTE]

Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.

The exposition of the theme ends at minute 1:03, and the rest is development up to the shattering climax. Each variation of the strands of of the main theme is seemingly foreordained and feels exactly right to keep building the tension, as in Beethoven. Emotion advances to a temporary climax and then cools before each assault on a new plateau.

The final climax begins at minute 3:12, and I hope I don’t offend anyone by drawing attention to a direct erotic parallel here. There is not one peak but several, and at 3:34 a series of descents begin, both of which are not unlike what happens in ‘real life’ on a good day. This was no doubt unconscious on Bach’s part, since he was a devout churchgoer. But he did father 23 children and evidently knew something about that aspect of life. As John Rasmussen pointed out above, Wagner wrote erotically in ‘Tristan und Isolde’. For me, this chorus by Bach has always seemed the most powerful and direct parallel with the erotic I’ve ever heard in music.

This excellent performance is not the most emotional one available, but is the most conductor-controlled and transparent for hearing all the parts clearly. It is possible to hear, if one tries, the great pair of trumpet triplets in the last few bars right before the end. These notes were more distinguishable in the older, slower pre-original instruments interpretations of years ago, which were however murkier in general.

To appreciate the structure of the climax, listeners may want to back their players up to about minute 3:00 and then play through, several times.
http://www.zigmund.com/CumSanctuSpiritu.mp3

Rod
10-11-2002, 09:57 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
[/b]

Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Well Bruggen is certainly a good judge of Beethoven, so I'll pay extra attention to this one. Bruggen's version of Beethoven's Violin Concerto and Creatures of Prometheus are fantastic and by far the best currently available I would say.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 11, 2002).]

Rod
10-12-2002, 07:13 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:



Here is the wonderful chorus ‘Cum Sanctu Spiritu’ from Bach’s Mass in B Minor, performed by the Netherlands Chamber Choir and the Orchestra of the 18th Century under Frans Brüggen.
[/B][/QUOTE]

Given it a good listening to. Sonically the best that you've offered so far, Bruggen keeps things tight and the momentum going. I can't imagine the slower interpretations you mention improving the piece. Still the same issues raise their ugly heads, apart from the trumpet theme there so no real anthem or textural contrasts to catch the memory in this track - that is the counterpoint becomes the ..er.. sole point of the piece. I think when you compare these efforts with the Handel pieces the latter are more memorable, whereas I tend to forget Bach pieces as soon as the last note has died, which is why I struggle to remember the names of any of the many Bach pieces I have heard over the years! Perhaps I have had things to good with Beethoven and Handel and I expect too much?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
10-12-2002, 10:12 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Given it a good listening to. Sonically the best that you've offered so far, Bruggen keeps things tight and the momentum going. I can't imagine the slower interpretations you mention improving the piece. Still the same issues raise their ugly heads, apart from the trumpet theme there so no real anthem or textural contrasts to catch the memory in this track - that is the counterpoint becomes the ..er.. sole point of the piece. I think when you compare these efforts with the Handel pieces the latter are more memorable, whereas I tend to forget Bach pieces as soon as the last note has died, which is why I struggle to remember the names of any of the many Bach pieces I have heard over the years! Perhaps I have had things to good with Beethoven and Handel and I expect too much?



I haven't heard this piece for 6 months, yet can recall it far more readily than any of the Handel pieces you have offered - it is simply a matter of familiarity. Having said that, some of the Bach arias from the Mathew passion are unforgetable after even one hearing - I think it is simply a matter of your own personal taste which changes over time - you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Joy
10-13-2002, 12:54 AM
Originally posted by Peter:

- I think it is simply a matter of your own personal taste which changes over time - you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!



That is so true. Your tastes do change over time. There's music I listened to 20 yrs. ago that I didn't quite 'get' and now they're some of my favourite pieces.

Joy

Rod
10-13-2002, 10:03 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
you may well hear these pieces in twenty years time and not believe that you couldn't see anything in them!



There is a finite limit of things to hear and assessments to make. I've heard enough of everything in tyhe world of CM and excercises like this current chain have only served to reinforce my existing state of preference. I simply cannot believe it when you say Bachs pieces are more memorable. You are surely arguing for the hell of it?! Whatever it is that you find so memorable in Bach by this converse logic (to my ears) means you must have an equally difficult time remembering Beethoven! Beethoven's (and indeed Mozart's Peter) choruses are far more Handelian than Bachian. I suppose there's not enough counterpoint in the Missa Solemnis for you boys either? Yet it is a piece than makes the B minor Mass look almost like a student's excercise. It was the St John Passion I think I was listening to on TV that I mentioned earlier, a tortuous experience in monotony compared to virually any Handel Oratorio. I fully understand why Handel abandoned this style at a very early age.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 13, 2002).]

Rod
10-13-2002, 10:28 PM
Originally posted by Joy:
That is so true. Your tastes do change over time. There's music I listened to 20 yrs. ago that I didn't quite 'get' and now they're some of my favourite pieces.

Joy

I still play the same pop and hard rock music I bought when I was teenager. I can't say I've had a change or heart about anything I have ever bought or heard. I recall my first listening to a full recording of the Messiah (long long ago) and thought is was awful, and it was, and indeed it still IS. It put me off Handel until more authentic instrument ensembles came on the scene. Even then is has taken time for player and (especially) singers associated with the authentic movement to understand how to perform this music. The case is even more so with Beethoven where things have gone if anything retrograde. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that once I've heard a piece I've never made an assessment of it that I have subsequently judged to be incorrect, even if I've heard it only once. And I'm too old a dog now to be taught new tricks!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 13, 2002).]

Joy
10-13-2002, 10:49 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I still play the same pop and hard rock music I bought when I was teenager. I can't say I've had a change or heart about anything I have ever bought or heard. I recall my first listening to a full recording of the Messiah (long long ago) and thought is was awful, and it was, and indeed it still IS. It put me off Handel until more authentic instrument ensembles came on the scene. Even then is has taken time for player and (especially) singers associated with the authentic movement to understand how to perform this music. The case is even more so with Beethoven where things have gone if anything retrograde. I suppose this is a long winded way of saying that once I've heard a piece I've never made an assessment of it that I have subsequently judged to be incorrect, even if I've heard it only once. And I'm too old a dog now to be taught new tricks!



I have to admit I've abandoned all the rock 'n' roll I used to listen to at a younger age in preference of classical which is all I've listened to for the past several years. Call me narrow minded if you will but I cannot get into the stuff I used to listen to anymore. It's impossible for me to go back now. I did listen to classical music also while growing up and loved listening to Messiah each Christmas and Easter when they would play it on radio and now my listening pleasure has grown with Handle to include many of his works which I think are genuis. My point is my classical music has broadened while my youthful music has dimenished completely.
P.S.: You're never too old!!

Joy

Peter
10-14-2002, 04:59 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
I simply cannot believe it when you say Bachs pieces are more memorable. You are surely arguing for the hell of it?! Whatever it is that you find so memorable in Bach by this converse logic (to my ears) means you must have an equally difficult time remembering Beethoven!
Beethoven's (and indeed Mozart's Peter) choruses are far more Handelian than Bachian. I suppose there's not enough counterpoint in the Missa Solemnis for you boys either? Yet it is a piece than makes the B minor Mass look almost like a student's excercise.


This really is ridiculous! I shall say no more on this subject as we have got nowhere -my position is that I admire Handel and Bach - yours remains one based on prejudice, determined to admit nothing of value in Bach - a remark that the B minor mass 'looks almost like a students exercise in comparison to the Missa' is absurd, and really not worthy of you. I have performed several Beethoven sonatas in public, and fortunately my memory hasn't let me down so far!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
10-14-2002, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
This really is ridiculous! I shall say no more on this subject as we have got nowhere -my position is that I admire Handel and Bach - yours remains one based on prejudice, determined to admit nothing of value in Bach - a remark that the B minor mass 'looks almost like a students exercise in comparison to the Missa' is absurd, and really not worthy of you. I have performed several Beethoven sonatas in public, and fortunately my memory hasn't let me down so far!



By default you and Chazss must be equally predjudiced as your own position re Handel and Bach is, whether you admit it or not, the direct opposite of my own. If I had stated a preference for Bach with equal zeal it would have met with no contradiction from yourselves, this I am sure of.

I thought my opinion of the B minor would result in the above condemnation. However I felt compelled to say this considering the established opinion is that they are works of equal merit. Even based on the few pieces presented here from B minor this cannot be true. There is a fair ammount of common place stuff in the B minor as far as I am concerned, whereas the Solemn Mass is perfect in every way, surely the supreme piece of church music, way too good for the church in fact.

PS did you people know Beethoven arranged the Fugue from Solomon's overture as a string quartet? I'll be putting this piece on the new (and final) list for the rare page, together with some other prelude and fugue excercises in the same medium.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 14, 2002).]

Peter
10-14-2002, 11:11 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
By default you and Chazss must be equally predjudiced as your own position re Handel and Bach is, whether you admit it or not, the direct opposite of my own. If I had stated a preference for Bach with equal zeal it would have met with no contradiction from yourselves, this I am sure of.


Did I not say I preferred the Concerto grossi to the Brandenburgs? My position is not the opposite of yours - You see Bach as the inferior to Handel in every way, I see them both as great.

PS did you people know Beethoven arranged the Fugue from Solomon's overture as a string quartet? I'll be putting this piece on the new (and final) list for the rare page, together with some other prelude and fugue excercises in the same medium.

I look forward to it.


------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
10-14-2002, 11:57 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

Did I not say I preferred the Concerto grossi to the Brandenburgs? My position is not the opposite of yours - You see Bach as the inferior to Handel in every way, I see them both as great.


You did state this preference with regard to the specific music concerned, but this aside I got the impression that your loyalties were more pro-Bach (for example that if Beethoven had heard more Bach, he would perhaps have re-thought his choice of Handel as the greatest composer). With regard to many issues I do indeed regard Bach as inferior, principally because I find his particular style of composition so limited compared to Handel's endless diversity (even allowing for his well known 'borrowings' of which even Bach was 'guilty' of to a certain degree).


Originally posted by Peter:


I look forward to it.



I've still got quite a few pieces I haven't listed but I think we've done enough with this theme and given a wide cross selection of things. We could perhaps do a similar page on a different theme. You know I've never been keen on doing a simple collection of his main works, but with my CD collection we could easily develop this along a specific theme - ie say, 'the master works on period instruments' or something to that effect. If this does not appeal perhaps you can think of something else... perhaps use Chris's collection!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 16, 2002).]

Rod
10-15-2002, 12:01 AM
Originally posted by Joy:
P.S.: You're never too old!!

Joy

I think you misunderstood this remark!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
10-17-2002, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
By default you and Chazss must be equally predjudiced as your own position re Handel and Bach is, whether you admit it or not, the direct opposite of my own. If I had stated a preference for Bach with equal zeal it would have met with no contradiction from yourselves, this I am sure of.




In my case this is true. After this cutting contest I'm as confirmed in my opinion of Bach as you are in yours of Handel, so we've got nowhere. It seems pointless to continue, though I heard a version of Bach's Orchestral Suite #3 last night that I think would even melt the heart of a... well, it is probably pointless.

My Bach collection was mostly built years ago, on LP. Lately I've been listening to and collecting CDs of Wagner. So I can't really be putting up specific forms by Bach to match those by Handel. I'd have to start collecting Bach CDs and really don't know enough about the original instruments movement to do so effectively in a short period of time. However, I don't think there's a point to this excercise anymore anyway. I did however, get a good re-appreciation for Bach and will be getting into some works I haven't yet heard. I think this exercise did me good for that. And I will try some of Handel's oratorios.

Rod
10-17-2002, 09:12 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
And I will try some of Handel's oratorios.



I recommend that if you do this, you ask me for a CD recommendation for whatever piece takes your fancy, as I've got them all. It could save you from making any costly mistakes.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited October 17, 2002).]

Rod
11-12-2002, 02:02 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
[BThis version is arranged by Neville Marriner, conducting the Academy
of St Martin-in-the-Fields. Although I invite Rod to try it, I don't
think he will like it based on his previous reactions. Others may
find it fine, six voices of counterpoint with some really beautiful
chordal combinations and progressions. I think it's the best
counterpoint I've heard by Bach, far superior emotionally to the Art
of Fugue which came a year or two later and is considered by some to
be the old composer's crowning achievement in polyphony.
[/B]

I've finally managed to get the time to listen to this piece. I agree its certainly the most sophisticated piece from Bach that I have heard, in fact I barely sounds like a Bach piece at all compared to the vast majority of Bach works I have heard. I thought the flute sounded a little out of place in this recording, although an authentic flute would have sounded far less intrusive. The treatment of the piece reminds me strangely of some of the chorus's in Handel's last Oratorios - Theodora and Jeptha, though Handel is more consise and diverse dramatically. I still have trouble, based on this recording at least, deciding whether the material can survive this lengthy treatment. On my second listening I got sensations of monotony creeping in - is the remainder of this work in the same style? Of course I would never even consider buying a Handel piece by the Academy of St Martin-in -the-Fields (of which there are many). But still, a good piece. But for the best piece in all Baroque try Theodora, CD by McCreesh and the Gabrielli Consort on Archiv if you have a few spare pennies (or better still the cheaper and superior video production at the Glyndebourne Festival Opera by Christie and the OAE, here the piece is acted (appropriately) as an opera though with (appropriately) minimal staging. This is a miraculous production, if only Fidelio were given such a considered treatment!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited November 12, 2002).]

Chaszz
11-13-2002, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
...I thought the flute sounded a little out of place in this recording, although an authentic flute would have sounded far less intrusive.... But still, a good piece.

[B]

Bach.. a good piece... an admission I thought I might never hear.

A flute is featured in most ensembles which record 'The Musical Offering' because Frederick the Great, for whom it was written, was an accompliushed flautist. Though the piece as a whole with its 16 or so movements is mostly unspecified as to instrumentation, there is a trio sonato for flute and continuo which IS specified, and the flute usually gets some assignments in the other movements as well.

As far as dull, the theme (which was provided by the king during a visit by Bach) is varied exhaustively every which way during the work. To me, there is a kind of rarefied, beautiful spectrum of emotions throughout, which I don't necessarily find in other exhaustive themic explorations by Bach, such as the Goldman Variations.

Since I like putting up mp3s, in the future I'll put up some movements from the Bach orchestral suites and concerti for solo instruments (not the Brandenbergs), which are mostly early works. I am also looking for a decent piano performance of the Busoni adaptation of the massive Chaconne from the Violin Partita #2. If anyone can point me to one, please do.

Rod
11-14-2002, 09:56 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:



Bach.. a good piece... an admission I thought I might never hear.
[/B][/QUOTE]

I have said before that I have liked the odd thing here and there from Bach. But I like everything from Handel who, imho, is capable of communicating much more via much less.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
11-14-2002, 06:17 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I have said before that I have liked the odd thing here and there from Bach. But I like everything from Handel who, imho, is capable of communicating much more via much less.



By the way, Rod, if you don't mind my asking, if you WERE of noble birth, what would be the rest of that thought?

I would think that noble birth is of little relevance these days, compared with the past, since we tend to evaluate people on their attainments rather than their births.

Also one would hope you weren't related to the British Royal Family, which as time goes on seems to be anything but noble.

Of course, if your noble birth carried an inheritance, it could free you to do as your heart desires, which would be....?

Rod
11-14-2002, 06:24 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
By the way, Rod, if you don't mind my asking, if you WERE of noble birth, what would be the rest of that thought?

I would think that noble birth is of little relevance these days, compared with the past, since we tend to evaluate people on their attainments rather than their births.

Also one would hope you weren't related to the British Royal Family, which as time goes on seems to be anything but noble.

Of course, if your noble birth carried an inheritance, it could free you to do as your heart desires, which would be....?



My quote is in fact a corruption of a Beethoven quote. It conserned his court dealings with Karl and his mother. It turned out that nobles got a better deal in Viennese courts, and thus prompted this remark from B.

As it relates to me the quote is self mocking and Royal mocking at the same time. I assure you I am a republican. What a sophisticated sence of humour I appear to have.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
11-15-2002, 01:02 PM
Might I also add that Beethoven's original quote was "If HE were but of noble birth". The HE being his nephew Karl.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited November 15, 2002).]

dice45
12-02-2002, 02:40 AM
Rod,

i am still wondering why you defend Händel so much and why you are so afraid of getting closer acquainted with J.S.Bach .
And why you are so afraid to admit that supreme preference toward a certain composer, artist, whatever, is partly depending on taste and partly on artistic quality **and** partly on personal perception. I could dump 200k text of expamples for that on you, i resist that temptation http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif . Instead i confess i have a hole in my soul as far as composed music from the Romantic era is concerned; there are few opuses i have mental access to (right performance presumed to be at hand), the rest just gives me nothing. But i would never dare to hang a tag of inferiority on that music.
Question: why do you need it that your personal preference is the one-and-only standard? Why have you to hang an inferiority tag on other member's personal preferences?

I am an engineer and engineers are reputed to stick to facts, theory. Real-life has to be aligned with theory or is ignored. The usual prejudices http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
Well, i already collected some experience in my job and i have this witchcraft-polluted audio engineering as private passion. My experience: all the theory, all the laws, all the formulas gives us an overly simplified model of the real world. I have ceased to believe that such things as facts exist (and only truth as well). I believe we are facing probability clouds, okok, those probability clouds described in the basic textbooks are quite dense.
And i can tell you, there are dozen of technical solutions leading to achieve a goal and whether the solution chosen is acceptable or good lies only in the eye of the customer who ordered the job. No objectivity ... although there seems to be iron rules how to do a job, there are none ...

Now art; there are no rules like in engineering and good art, good music exists in the eye of the beholder, ear of the listener. Everyone of us has mental limitations, just everyone has different ones.
I hate to take sides, but i am with Chazz here.

Rod and all,
There are composers and composers. Some have a bigger impact on musical fashion, some smaller. Some remain popular over centuries, some are just an ambulant fashion.
And then there is this hard-to-grasp concept of quality. Amazingly there seems to be a quality scale from inferiority to superiority in art. For instance, it is thinkable a person likes naive painting. It is thinkable the person (provided a certain openmindedness) gets acquainted with other painters and ends up in liking Picasso ... or maybe Rembrandt. Now what has this to do with quality? It cannot be that more people agree in seeing a certain art as artistic standard: the naive painting (i am intentionally avoiding to name an example) is bought as repro by millions and is adorning the bedroom or living room and people are happy with it. It cannot be the price, some pictures are sold for incredible money but are obviously crap, just rare. Hold on, Rembrandt's Nightwatch is guessed to cost 40 Mio Euro ... but it's never appearing on the market, a very virtual value. The Nightwatch is a good example, a very good one, but not of the price. Can you imagine a person likes naive painting and develops and end up in adoring Rembrandt's Nighttwatch or Dürer's "Knight, Death & Devil"? Methinks, that's possible. Can you imagine the inverse, 1st preferring and grasping Rembrandt and ending up in seing the naive painter as state-of-the-art?
I cannot. Can you?
Rembrandt, Picasso, Dürer (list incomplete) have a higher quality: a much wider horizon of depicting life and a deeper and way more detailed and diffentiated scope of transferred emotions.
Being the boring engineer http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif i'd like to recommend an engineers read (really?): Robert A.Pirsigs "Zen and the art of motorcycle maintenance". To get deeper into the question "What is quality?"

OK, but Händel and J.S.Bach play in the Rembrandt league, so i assume. And within this league of quality, which is not dependent on locality, they adress differnent preferences, different historic backgrounds, different impact on the horizon of mind of their environment. And the latter is definitely local.

My assumption is that J.S.Bach was a local genius of Germany whereas Händel was a local British genius. "Genius" in this context is a local attribute, it adresses a certain innovation for differnt nations brough by different people. And the general message can be transmitted via different channnels.
And e.g. a German genius' impact on Germans was maybe observed but definitely not experienced by another country's people.

Let me translate the term "genius" here as "door-opener", "horizon-widener", "mental innovator", "messenger bringing a new, unpreceded quality".
I have not enough data to judge on, just from discussions on the web i got the impression that Händel had (and still has) an impact of similar size in British composed music as J.S.Bach had for Germany.
Bach brought absolute music to the Germans, he opened their ears for music as such. Before, music was a utility, it was used as secular adornment, as religios propaganda, as accompaniment to any sort of amusement; it had only a serving function.
Maybe Händel did same or similar to the British. Could i be right there?

Beethoven was also one of Germany's geniuses whereas Haydn and Mozart do not qualify as "genius" in the context described above. While they were incredibly gifted musicians and composers, their art did not bring any new quality. In Jazz this is called Mainstream. Not an inferiority tag at all IMO. The innovator among those 3 great composers of Wiener Klassik era was Beethoven: he was the first to bring a concept called "Leidstolz" to the Germans (Rembrandt brought the same to the Dutch people, just, he was a painter). Leidstolz could be translated best as "Pride and confidence while suffering". Before Beethoven, someone with bad luck, bad health, poverty, not born with a golden spoon in the mouth etc., was considered as nothing and considered himself as nothing.
Beethoven did not let life intimidate him, he fiercely stroke back, he was not giving in. He stood proud and upright, no matter how hard Fate hit him. His music transferred that emotional message as well as the example he was giving by his life.
With the people becoming aware of Beethoven, Germany and Austria were not the same anymore, Zeitgeist had changed dramatically.

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

Rod
12-02-2002, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by dice45:
Rod,

i am still wondering why you defend Händel so much and why you are so afraid of getting closer acquainted with J.S.Bach .



Perhaps the same reason why you 'have a hole' for the Romantics.

Originally posted by dice45:

Question: why do you need it that your personal preference is the one-and-only standard? Why have you to hang an inferiority tag on other member's personal preferences?


I was offering an alternative position ot the Establishment status-quo, which rates Bach the superior. At worse I am no worse than this status quo. Chazz was taking a position opposite to myself, nobody else seemed to be very interested in the discussion. I do not recall hanging an inferiority tag on anybody.


Originally posted by dice45:

I hate to take sides, but i am with Chazz here.


I'd be interested to know how much Handel you have actualy listened to.

Originally posted by dice45:

My assumption is that J.S.Bach was a local genius of Germany whereas Händel was a local British genius.


This is not so with regard to Handel, who was internationally famous. On arriving in Italy he virually destroyed all the competition by the time he was 22. In Germany he was, uniquely, awarded honourary membership of Leipzig's most famous Academy - Bach had to earn his membership by submitting a composition for assessment. In England he received commisions from the King (Water music, Fireworks music for example). Does Bach's experience equate to all this?


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 02, 2002).]

dice45
12-02-2002, 02:33 PM
Rod,

sorry, but you are IMO hanging an inferiority tag on J.S.Bach. Maybe not be direct statements but by how you talk about it and also by frantically trying to have the last word on your point. You have superior knowledge, please care not to use it as weapon. Please!

So, having said this, i am no entering the slippery terrain of proving my Händel competence, i haven't claimed one. This is not a "my fax copier is better than your mobile phone" pissing contest, nor is this a struggle who is the main deer on the place, atleast i am not entering it.

Heck, can't we leave that silly comparative ranking game? http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/frown.gif

I do not rate him superior, i do not rate him at all. Guess whom i mean with him, J.S.Bach or Händel. Guess on, i won't tell you. Both are for me in that non-local quality league. And if a person is claiming a composer is deserving to belong to this league or is not deserving, i won't have a word against it-- maybe he hass access to layers inaccessible to me. Maybe inverse, who knows, does not matter.

If you have read and understood my previous post thoroughly, you will find i assigned J.S.Bach having a certain function to Germany, means: locally restricted to Germany. With Germany i mean: people on the street, all people, not only musical experts. I mean: the man had an overall impact on the population, on their minds. With Händel this is not observable. For Germany. Has nothing to with his skill and enlightenment as composer.
What i was wondering (as i have few data on it): had Händel a Mozart-like or Beethoven-like impact on British minds?

I do not know much from Händel, i have the Messiah, cond.by Hermann Scherchen which i enjoy enormously and some orchestral suites.
Before, Wanda Landowska performance was spinning, "Harmonious Blacksmith".
Before that, i had the Würzburg Guität Trio playing a Fugue. At the moment the Scherchen Messiah is spinning.
i found some other Messiah, cond. by Helmut Koch. Have to try that out.
I have Li Stadelmann playing 5th, 7th and 8th harspichord suites and Aria con variazioni, B flat major, one of those performnaces you do not need a comparison to know it's right on the spot.
And i have quite some performances of the Brüggen/Leonhardt/Bylsma club. A complete set of sonatas for wind and basso continuo among them which i have worn down considerably, like the music very much.
To be honest, finding Brüggen and/or Bylsma on vinyl triggeres a "shoot 1st, ask later" behaviour in me http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif.

Händel is new huge terrain terrain for me to explore. And i have so many other new terrains to explore. I take the freedom to set my own priorities. Ok, to soothe you, i haven't stepped into a single opus from Händel so far which was boring me -- they is still a considerable count of Mozart opuses boring me. Does that depend on the performance? Probably, Mozart is terribly hard to get right, terribly hard to avoid interpretation. But there are some opuses i lost hope http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif. Always the key question before one can dare to downgrade an opus: is the performer up to task? Few listeners have the imagination how a work could sound if played different.

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited December 02, 2002).]

Sorrano
12-02-2002, 04:18 PM
Originally posted by dice45:
Rod,

Beethoven was also one of Germany's geniuses whereas Haydn and Mozart do not qualify as "genius" in the context described above. While they were incredibly gifted musicians and composers, their art did not bring any new quality. In Jazz this is called Mainstream. Not an inferiority tag at all IMO.



I must disagree to a point here, although in general I like very much the points you have made. Haydn, at least in my mind more so than Mozart, expanded a great deal the way of thinking in regards to the Sonata-Allegro model that is the basis of the Symphony and Sonata for solo and multiple instruments. His clever and economical development of ideas also has a lasting impact. Perhaps not near as much an impact that Beethoven has but nonetheless he did more for that structure than any other save Beethoven. (And then again, I am nuts about Haydn, too!)

Chaszz
12-02-2002, 07:02 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
I must disagree to a point here, although in general I like very much the points you have made. Haydn, at least in my mind more so than Mozart, expanded a great deal the way of thinking in regards to the Sonata-Allegro model that is the basis of the Symphony and Sonata for solo and multiple instruments. His clever and economical development of ideas also has a lasting impact. Perhaps not near as much an impact that Beethoven has but nonetheless he did more for that structure than any other save Beethoven. (And then again, I am nuts about Haydn, too!)

(Perhaps I shall start a new controversy here). I think that Mozart contributed greatly in orchestration, unlocking the possibilities of tonal colors in the orchestra to a greater extent than Haydn. (Here is the red flag thrown to the floor) This bypassed Beethoven, possibly because of his deafness. Not merely I, but no less an authority than Leonard Bernstein, held that Beethoven was a mediocre orchestrator, notwithstanding his titanic greatness as a composer. Orchestration, in my opinion, following Mozert's lead, came to fruition in the late Romantics, with Brahms, Wagner, Mahler and R. Strauss, among others.

dice45
12-03-2002, 02:53 AM
Sorrano & Chazz,
please put off the musician's glasses http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
i was not talking about music, I was not saying anything concerning what the composer was to other composers and the musician to other musicians, this is expert's network internal communication. No objection against what you say -- i am myself exploring new Haydn and Mozart miracles every week. And enjoying that music enormously (not today, Rod chased me to go thru my small Hänndel collection http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif )
I was talking about the man and the work having impact and influence on the peoples daily lifes, on Zeitgeist.

Let me give you the small list of German geniuses:
Otto I.(emperor), Albertus Magnus (cathedral builder), A. Dürer (painter), M. Luther (reformer of religion), N. Kopernikus (astronomer), J.S.Bach (composer), I. Kant (philosopher), F.G.Klopstock (poet, lyricist), L.v.Beethoven (pianist & composer), J.W.v.Goethe (poet, lyricist),
A.Einstein (physicist). List closed.
Those guys had tracable influence on my home country's history.

Now please anyone feel invited to muse about of a list of geniuses of your home country. You will find different guys and even for similar messages & innovations, you may find e.g. a painter where you would expect a musician. Or whatever.
Remember, Rembrandt was for the Dutch what Beethoven was for the Germans. Both brought the Leidstolz concept to their people.
Guess what fellow artists thot about Leidstolz. They would have had face expression like a car, just not as fast http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif.
Because there was not enough historical distance. Same with people on the street. They became aware of the new quality, possibly enjoyed it but i sincerely doubt they would have found a name for it.
We find a name for it, with a couple of centuries observing distance.

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

Andrea
12-03-2002, 08:30 AM
Well, Bernhard, you had a nice short list of German geniuses and ask if any of us would like to contribute a list from our home country. Now, I am an American but Austria is my home. I could be here all day making a list for American geniuses but here is one for Austria:
Christian Doppler, mathematician (Doppler Effect); Gustav Klimt, painter; Gregor Mendel, called the "Father of Genetics"; Klemens Wenzel von Metternich, diplomat; Ferdinand Porsche, auto designer; Joseph Pulitzer; Mozart, Haydn, Schubert, J.Strauss, Bruckner, Mahler, Schoenberg, Wolf,Berg (composers); Karl Böhm and Herbert von Karajan, conductors.

Now of course this doesn't count all of the famous composers from other countries who made Vienna their home: Beethoven, Brahms, von Suppe, Vivaldi and others.

Yes, variety is the spice of life no matter where you call home. Wouldn't it be boring if every composer wrote the same kind of music. Thank god for the influences that these people had on all of us. The world is a better place for that. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Peter
12-03-2002, 08:36 AM
Originally posted by dice45:

Now please anyone feel invited to muse about of a list of geniuses of your home country. You will find different guys and even for similar messages & innovations, you may find e.g. a painter where you would expect a musician. Or whatever.




Interesting that you should mention this as here in the UK we have just been subjected to a national poll to find our greatest Briton ( a silly exercise in the first place)- unfortunately most people here seem unable to think back beyond the 20th century and it was interesting (though predictable)to see how badly the arts faired : Purcell, Elgar (John Lennon got far more votes than these two!) Turner, Shakespeare, were just a few who didn't get a look in. They were surpassed by Princess Diana who nearly knocked Churchill off the number 1 spot. I can think of many other worthies who should have done that!

As far as I am aware the English never have had the great regard for Handel that you said - during his lifetime the operas were so unpopular he was forced to concentrate on oratorio - even Messiah took a decade to be appreciated in England. It was John Gay and the Beggar's opera that the great British wanted to hear. Only some 240 years after Handel's death has anyone bothered to turn his London home (where he lived for over 20 years) into a museum.

Something in the British character is inherently suspicious of genius, we are uncomfortable with it and feel much safer with mediocrity.

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'Man know thyself'

Chaszz
12-03-2002, 01:25 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by dice45:
Let me give you the small list of German geniuses:
Otto I.(emperor), Albertus Magnus (cathedral builder), A. Dürer (painter), M. Luther (reformer of religion), N. Kopernikus (astronomer), J.S.Bach (composer), I. Kant (philosopher), F.G.Klopstock (poet, lyricist), L.v.Beethoven (pianist & composer), J.W.v.Goethe (poet, lyricist),
A.Einstein (physicist). List closed.
Those guys had tracable influence on my home country's history.

I would add Wagner and Heisenberg. Virtually all of modern classical music comes from 'Tristan und Isolde'. And the composer certainly made a big impression on the German public. As for Heisenberg, the uncertainty principle may turn out to be more important for the future than relativity. Certainly quantum mechanics has touched our lives in many more ways, technologically speaking, than relativity has. And may in the furure, expecially quantum entanglement and 'action-at-a-distance'.

Sorrano
12-03-2002, 03:05 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
(Perhaps I shall start a new controversy here). I think that Mozart contributed greatly in orchestration, unlocking the possibilities of tonal colors in the orchestra to a greater extent than Haydn. (Here is the red flag thrown to the floor) This bypassed Beethoven, possibly because of his deafness. Not merely I, but no less an authority than Leonard Bernstein, held that Beethoven was a mediocre orchestrator, notwithstanding his titanic greatness as a composer. Orchestration, in my opinion, following Mozert's lead, came to fruition in the late Romantics, with Brahms, Wagner, Mahler and R. Strauss, among others.




Don't forget Berlioz! Also, Mozart was instrumental in influencing German Opera composers of the 19th Century. His operas, in my opinion, are his single greatest contribution to music.

Peter
12-03-2002, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:

Also, Mozart was instrumental in influencing German Opera composers of the 19th Century. His operas, in my opinion, are his single greatest contribution to music.

And the Piano Concertos!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Joy
12-03-2002, 03:53 PM
As far as American geniuses go my immediate first thought was Benjamin Franklin with his many, many inventions and discoveries not to mention a great statesman and one of our founding fathers. Samuel Morse (the telegraph); Crawfore Long (ether) which helped the medical field immensely. Richard Hoe (Printing Press); not to mention the famous Thomas Edison, one of the most influential inventors for the 20th century, and Alexander Bell, who helped expand the comminucation world. Of course, there's many, many more in all different fields as well, but, these just came to mind.

Joy

dice45
12-04-2002, 02:15 AM
Andrea,
go thru that list and ask at every name:
What was the mental innovation?
In which way a new mental horizon was opened?
Was the mental innovation limited to fellow experts or did it reach the proverbial man on the street.
Consider that Austria's history was linked to Germany's before the bloody French Revolution 1789.
On first glance i spot 1 1/2 names fitting into "genius" in the sense of mental inovator and horizon-opener: Mendel & Metternich.
the half one: Metternich was an effective politician affecting peoples lives but i doubt he was revealing any new ideas making the people changing their minds
Mendel: shattered the unconditional religious belief in the Holy Bible's Genesis book. Explained how biological life evolved. Tha uis reaching even over Austria, this has had worldwide impact. Maybe not as direct and intense as Beethoven. But admitted, he had its impact.
Noone of the others, methinks.

Chazz,
Wagner: disagreed. Impact inside the musical world. applies for Mozart, Haydn, Schoenberg, Berg, Webern, J.&R.Strauss as well.
Heisenberg: i would agree. iwold go as far and say, era of local horizon-openers is over, era of global ones begins. A.Einstein is last German genius as well as 1st global genius. And Heisenberg i would sense too as a global genius. Nevertheless, although Heisenberg has a bigger impact on quantum physics, none of his impact on Zeitgeist comes close to "Everthing is relative" and similar Einstein statements. It is not Einstein's general an particular relativity theory which makes him the horizon widener: it is the simple statement "Everthing is relative": putting in words what everyone was feeling but noone before him able to give a name. The era of classic Newton physics was over, nothing was absolute anymore, "Everthing is relative". That's it, that makes Einstein the horizon-opener.

Could be that Stephen Hawking's "Small history of time" makes him a genius, a star much brighter than Einstein and Heisenberg together. Who knows?
Suddenly poeple on the street are discusing phenomonons and mental models that noone excpet a few eggheads could even dream to access before.

Joy,
AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention; telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany but not ackowöedges as epochal and Edison and Bell took it and made it available. Which is a similar achievement.
R.Hoe, yes, agreed. Morse, yes, probably.
Long: disagreed, impact remains among experts.
For America you certainly should mentions George Washington and methinks, Franklin's impact as politician to public minds was bigger than his inventions.
I see 3 names which belong to that list, no matter how (un)pleasant this may look. C.Vanderbuilt,J.P.Morgan,Rockefeller.
Ooops, forgot Al Capone. He was having impact on public mind! He was bringing the concept of organized criminality.
An American evil-genius.

Peter,
very interesting, thanxalot!! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
as we are on music, noone here on the continent seems to realize what wonderful and essential music William Byrd has written ... I have his Pavans and Gaillards for the harsichord on vinyl, Davitt Moroney playing. And Julian Bream also seems to be very fond of Byrd. I only have some pieces for lute, okok, i know that Bream is not considered as politically correct by orthodox lutenists. I don't care... http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

spaceray
12-04-2002, 03:13 AM
No one wrote more beautiful poetry and then set it to music than the Germans,here is
Das Rosenband
Im Fruhlingsschatten fand ich sie;
Da band ich sie mit Rosenbandern.
Sie fuhlt' es nicht und schlummerte.

Ich sah sie an;mein Leben hing
Mit diesem Blick an ihrem Leben!
Ich Fuhlt'es wohl und wuft' es nicht.

Doch lispelt' ich ihr sprachlos zu
Und rauschte mit den Rosenbandern:
Da wachte sie vomSchlummer auf.

Sie sah mich an; ihr Leben hing
Mit diesem Blick an meinem Leben,
Und um uns ward's Elysium.

The Chain Of Roses
I found her in the spring shade and I bound her with chains of roses; she did not feel it and went on slumbering.I looked at her;by this glance my life hung from her life.I felt this but did not realize it.But I whispered speechlessly to her and rustled the chains of roses. Then she woke up from her sleep.She looked at me:by that glance her life hung from my life,and round us suddenly was Elysium.

Friedrich Gottlieb Klopstock
(translation by Leonard Forster)

Peter
12-04-2002, 09:48 AM
Originally posted by dice45:

Peter,
very interesting, thanxalot!! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
as we are on music, noone here on the continent seems to realize what wonderful and essential music William Byrd has written ... I have his Pavans and Gaillards for the harsichord on vinyl, Davitt Moroney playing. And Julian Bream also seems to be very fond of Byrd. I only have some pieces for lute, okok, i know that Bream is not considered as politically correct by orthodox lutenists. I don't care... http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif



Orlando Gibbons and Thomas Tallis are two other outstanding English musical figures from that time. Since everyone here is also mentioning great people from other fields, I would say that Isaac Newton, Willian Shakespeare and Thomas Paine were amongst some of the greatest Britain has produced.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
12-04-2002, 01:00 PM
Originally posted by dice45:

Heck, can't we leave that silly comparative ranking game? http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/frown.gif


As I have said, 'silly' Beethoven himself played the same kind of game!

Originally posted by dice45:


What i was wondering (as i have few data on it): had Händel a Mozart-like or Beethoven-like impact on British minds?


Handel has no impact whatsoever in the British mind. Which is why I didn't get into him myself until a relatively late date. Like everywhere else, the British too believe, even if it is not openly admitted, that Bach is the higher of the 'two peaks'. And like everywhere else, they are in error.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

dice45
12-04-2002, 02:05 PM
Rod,
would Beethoven himself hypothetically show up on an internet forum with an incognito moniker, he would be banned within short, i am sure http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Interesting that the British esteem Händel lower than Bach.
I myself am undecided here. I compared some vocal works from Bach (St.Matthew passion and Xmas oratorio) with both Händel Messiah performances i have. To be honest, i never enjoyed Bach's cantatas, oratorios, passions, masses, even if played by Karl Richter, Philipp Herweghe an the like. The Messiah i like very much. But in the meantime i found 2 Händel works outright boring me: Water Music and Fireworks Music. That's an audiophile brass & percussion demo, so i sense it. Sorry.

I think it depends on the opus. Händel wrote gorgeous stuff in one area, say, oratorios, cantatas, masses. Bach had another focus. His concerts & solo instrument works, for organ, harpsichord, violin, cello are gems. Passacaglia for organ, chromatic fantasia & fugue, Goldberg variations, well-tempered clavier, musical offering, art of the fugue are crown jewels IMO. Not to forget the Ciaconna and Fuga Alla Breve from the violin sonatas & partitas. The Fuga is reaching into 20th century, harmonically and rhythmically and i remember some preludes and fugues from the WTC, end of book 1 and book 2 to to which this statement also is applying.
Provided the performer is up to it, i do not know such breathtaking rhythmics from other composers. The music is often dancing and swinging.
Charles Mingus once said, would Bach live today, he would be a bassist. To judge that, you should have heard Mingus and other good Jazz bassists play http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Nevertheless i am eager to explore the Händel field a bit more http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

Sorrano
12-04-2002, 02:19 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
And the Piano Concertos!



Perhaps all piano music--what was I thinking, anyway?!

Rod
12-04-2002, 03:18 PM
Originally posted by dice45:
Rod,
would Beethoven himself hypothetically show up on an internet forum with an incognito moniker, he would be banned within short, i am sure http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif


I wouldn't bar him, based on his quotes I have read.

Originally posted by dice45:

....Interesting that the British esteem Händel lower than Bach.



Everywhere people, especially musically educated people, rate Bach the superior, without even knowing why from my experience, for they have typically heard very little Handel other than Messiah. It is just assumed. When I made this point to some musicians I know in Paris they all laughed at me, assumimg I thought this way because I am English (even though I regard Handel as a German!).


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 04, 2002).]

Joy
12-04-2002, 10:38 PM
Originally posted by dice45:

Could be that Stephen Hawking's "Small history of time" makes him a genius, a star much brighter than Einstein and Heisenberg together. Who knows?
Suddenly poeple on the street are discusing phenomonons and mental models that noone excpet a few eggheads could even dream to access before.
[/B]

Stephen Hawking is a great candidate. I think he's amazing and he's books are wonderful.
_____________________________________________
Originally posted by dice45:

AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention;
telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany
[/B]

To whom are you referring? Sorry, I'm not up on this.

_____________________________________________
Originally posted by dice45:
For America you certainly should mentions George Washington.

[/B]

I can't believe I forgot about old George! And my birthday is on the same day as his! I was almost named Georgia! How could I forget!!

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited December 04, 2002).]

Joy
12-04-2002, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Since everyone here is also mentioning great people from other fields, I would say that Isaac Newton, Willian Shakespeare and Thomas Paine were amongst some of the greatest Britain has produced.



Most certainly. Good Choices!!

dice45
12-05-2002, 03:59 AM
Joy,
the telephone was invented by Alexander Reis and the coal filament light bulb by a German mechanic (1st name Heinrich, to tired to dig up the last name) who had illuminated his workshop by lightbulbs 15ys before Edison toyed around with the topic.

Rod and all,

Bach & Händel & artist's handwriting: In my own profession which is my art and my passion too, i can tell an engineer's personality from looking at his design and be right on spot ... engineering is art, from a certain POV. And i have certain hunches what an artist's handwriting, be he a painter, composer, writer, sculpturer, whatever, tells about his personality. And if i read about the person later, i find the info about his personality to be well-aligned with my hunches in most cases.

Bach and Händel are different personalities alltogether and i can feel this clearly from their music (i am not only looking at the Messiah alone).
Today i found a booklet with a comparison between Bach and Händel attached to my Messiah record. Having a comparison between Bach and Händel concerning their music as well as their life, their way to achieve their personal goals and success (or rather not, in Bach's case) and their personality.
Händel the guy to get along well, turning retreats into victories, able to connect relationships to mighty and influential music lovers and to handle th relationship so lighthanded and virtuously easy on words that he could keep his own POVs, had not to eat the humble pie ... and Bach,always stubborn, always sensed as troublemaker by his superiors, always striking back, writing an over-complex style in letters as going far as to be in struggle with language http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif and using his personal music as last resort to escape from the world ... like a drug ...
I feel it's pointless to even try to compare them, like apples and oranges. I like them both, for differing reasons.


------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

Peter
12-05-2002, 09:06 AM
Originally posted by dice45:
Joy,
the telephone was invented by Alexander Reis and the coal filament light bulb by a German mechanic (1st name Heinrich, to tired to dig up the last name) who had illuminated his workshop by lightbulbs 15ys before Edison toyed around with the topic.

Very interesting and certainly news to me!


I feel it's pointless to even try to compare them, like apples and oranges. I like them both, for differing reasons.

Absolutely and this whole thread has not changed my views on that one bit! However it has been interesting to hear some of the pieces Rod put up (I was already familiar with the Bach pieces Chaszz supplied, which just goes to show how much Handel lays gathering dust). It is incredible to think Handel wrote around 40 operas and 20 oratorios of which hardly anything is ever performed. I was wondering if Rod could recommend a list of what he considers the best of the operas and oratorios?

[/B]

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 05, 2002).]

dice45
12-05-2002, 12:19 PM
Drugs ....
well not only drugs to Bach himself .... also drugs to me. Back then in university, I used to dope myself by alternatively playing Jimi Hendrix and Bach violin sonatas/partitas at elevated volume http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif ... to come in the right mood for solving differntial equations ... or for understanding, make that envisioning complex problems ... or for envisioning mechanical or electronic design solutions.
For solving differntial equations the mix from "Fuga Alla Breve" and "Machine Gun" was just perfect.. oops forgot Coltrane "My Favourite things" and "Summertime" (Atlantic records). My mother used to ask me something like what drug i had taken or why else i had such a dopey face expression. She was quite scared .... http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

Sorrano
12-05-2002, 02:31 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Everywhere people, especially musically educated people, rate Bach the superior, without even knowing why from my experience, for they have typically heard very little Handel other than Messiah. It is just assumed. When I made this point to some musicians I know in Paris they all laughed at me, assumimg I thought this way because I am English (even though I regard Handel as a German!).




Don't forget that musicians are fed Bach on account of his contributions to harmony and counterpoint. His chorales alone provide an open textbook on harmonic progression. The Well Tempered Clavier is another textbook of counterpoint. Most rules that music students are taught are based on these very principles that Bach exemplified in his works. Hence the exposure and favoritism of Bach. Appreciation for Handel is typically based on a more emotional response. Even though Handel composed, using wonderful harmonic progressions and inventive counterpoint, there are no "open textbooks" among his works that specifically demonstrate the principles behind the theory. This does not make Bach superior or less superior. But it has given him an edge in exposure and hence his popularity.

Chaszz
12-05-2002, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:

Don't forget that musicians are fed Bach on account of his contributions to harmony and counterpoint. His chorales alone provide an open textbook on harmonic progression. The Well Tempered Clavier is another textbook of counterpoint. Most rules that music students are taught are based on these very principles that Bach exemplified in his works. Hence the exposure and favoritism of Bach. Appreciation for Handel is typically based on a more emotional response. Even though Handel composed, using wonderful harmonic progressions and inventive counterpoint, there are no "open textbooks" among his works that specifically demonstrate the principles behind the theory. This does not make Bach superior or less superior. But it has given him an edge in exposure and hence his popularity.

I'm afraid I have to disagree with this. Bach's 150-year popularity with the general classical music public, as opposed to musicians, is testimony that his music (especially the church music) has emotional strengths which go far beyond didactic educational purposes. As for harmonic progressions, based on the MP3 movements which Rod and I put up here, I see little harmonic imagination on Handel's part. He mostly uses tonic, dominant, subdominant and other basic standard harmonic relationships, while Bach ranges far afield.

Joy
12-06-2002, 03:17 PM
Originally posted by dice45:

Joy,
AFAIR, Bell's and Edison's biggest successes were not based on their invention; telephone and lightbulb were invented in Germany but not ackowöedges as epochal and Edison and Bell took it and made it available. Which is a similar achievement.

[/B]

I couldn't find Alexander Reis in any of my history books or encyclopedias, however, I did find a Philipp Rice (1834-1874). This is what I found:

"Nearly 140 years ago Philipp Rice presented an apparatus, with which one tones and thus also language with the help of the electric current transfer can. This apparatus consisted of two parts, which Rice (in 1863) called telephone (transmitter) and reproduction apparatus (receiver). Philipp Rice is however not recognized everywhere as the inventor of the telephone. That is because of the fact that he did not succeed in such a way that a practical application would have resulted". I guess that's where Alexander Graham Bell entered and suceeded. Still looking for the lightbulb story.

While I'm on the subject I thought of another man who could fit the list. An author, Charles Dickens, not from my country I know, but a brilliant writer. Here in the states, around this time (Christmas) they bring out his 'Christmas Carol'. Just wonderful, a classic!

Joy

Chaszz
12-06-2002, 06:28 PM
Originally posted by Joy:
I couldn't find Alexander Reis in any of my history books or encyclopedias, however, I did find a Philipp Rice (1834-1874). This is what I found:

"Nearly 140 years ago Philipp Rice presented an apparatus, with which one tones and thus also language with the help of the electric current transfer can. This apparatus consisted of two parts, which Rice (in 1863) called telephone (transmitter) and reproduction apparatus (receiver). Philipp Rice is however not recognized everywhere as the inventor of the telephone. That is because of the fact that he did not succeed in such a way that a practical application would have resulted". I guess that's where Alexander Graham Bell entered and suceeded. Still looking for the lightbulb story.

While I'm on the subject I thought of another man who could fit the list. An author, Charles Dickens, not from my country I know, but a brilliant writer. Here in the states, around this time (Christmas) they bring out his 'Christmas Carol'. Just wonderful, a classic!

Joy



I was under the impression Edison did not invent the light bulb but worked to perfect it with a long-lasting filament. He settled on tungsten after trying over a thousand other materials.

Among great Americans I would like to mention are Frank Lloyd Wright, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, architect whover lived...and Louis Armstrong, who gave jazz its form. His finest creative period was when he was in his twenties making 78 RPM records. Though there is only 3 or four hours of this available now, it is simply wonderful improvisation. At that time he was reportedly playing 6 or 8 hours a night and sometimes taking trumpet solos of thirty successive choruses, so if a good amount of it could have been recorded, I believe it would stand ably alongside the works of the great classical composers. This early work should not be judged by the genial older Armstrong later known by a wider public, whose trumpet creativity had largely declined in old age.

Joy
12-06-2002, 06:55 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I was under the impression Edison did not invent the light bulb but worked to perfect it with a long-lasting filament. He settled on tungsten after trying over a thousand other materials.

Among great Americans I would like to mention are Frank Lloyd Wright, one of the greatest, if not the greatest, architect whover lived...and Louis Armstrong, who gave jazz its form. His finest creative period was when he was in his twenties making 78 RPM records. Though there is only 3 or four hours of this available now, it is simply wonderful improvisation. At that time he was reportedly playing 6 or 8 hours a night and sometimes taking trumpet solos of thirty successive choruses, so if a good amount of it could have been recorded, I believe it would stand ably alongside the works of the great classical composers. This early work should not be judged by the genial older Armstrong later known by a wider public, whose trumpet creativity had largely declined in old age.




Other people agree on the Edison issue. Do you happen to know the name of the person who invented the light bulb originally?

I agree with you about Frank Lloyd Wright. His 'Taliesin West', winter home, which he began in 1938, is nearby in Scottsdale, Arizona. It's a work of art. I suppose, while we're at it, we should include Henry Ford in the list as well.

Interesting about Louis Armstrong. I hadn't realized all of that.

Joy

dice45
12-06-2002, 07:47 PM
Joy & Chazz,
can be i am wrong about Reis' 1st name, probably your right it's "Philipp" ...
having just a nasty divorce from my internet family in the bones, i am not in the mood to dig up some specifics ... i would have to re-read a book. L8er.

Concerning Jazz musicians, i don't need a book to read. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif Louis Armstrong, agreed, had huge impact, he was the 1st protagonist to make Jazz popular and brought a quite different, unique feeling to people.
But most of his impact was inside the musician's community hence expert2expert level IMO. Sad to say so: Paul Whiteman had a much bigger impact.
I personally do not adore Armstrong as musician, i find him too nice, too streamlined. I like Chicago style very much, this is the last era in Jazz with collective improvisations. I am a great fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Beiderbecke had a remarkable impact on fellow musicians as well as on public minds, considered that it was only 3 years between his rise and his death.
But talking about Jazz, there comes another evil genius in mind: Charlie "Bird" Parker.
Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker are the only two Jazz musicians deeply influencing all other Jazz instrumentalists and not only those playing trumpet in one case and alto sax in the other.
Parker's impact on lifestyle, on the public man, particularly young people i consider as genuinely evil: His lifestyle was highly self-destructive and -- unfotunately -- highly expemplaric. Many young people wanted to be as hip as he was, "to be like Bird, you have to do like Bird" he made drug addiction popular like noone before. Worse, he cemented this example function in generations of musicians of coming styles. "to play like Bird, you have to do like Bird" and noone of those fellow musicians with inferior skills, giftedness, knowledge would realize that Bird played like he did inspite of the drugs, not because of it. At his time, noone would ever reach the level of fresh inventiveness and creativity in melodic improvisation he was easily dwelling at. Later Sonny Rollins and Clifford Brown reached his level of this particular way melodic improvisation; But even for them this were happy occasions of high altitude flights, not standard flight height. Remarakbly, both did without drugs. For Clifford Brown it was never a question to use drugs, he was the clean one. Rollins had recovered from drug use, TMK. And so had Coltrane, BTW. Coltrane later died from another drug: his own music. But he was a angelic spirit in his last ys, not an evil one.
Charlie Parker however had created a generation of musicians being an evil expample to their adorers and this has not been limited to Jazz, this spread over all contemporary styles. Think about Jimi Hendrix.

All, particularly Rod,
Parker's improvisations are to me a musical gem box like, e.g. Händels works are for Rod. I feel fond of him, his music accompanied me since my youth and probably will until i die. I am not the least downtalking Parker's musical importance. But i am looking different at the man's lasting impact on our world which i have to consider evil by the same principles i consider J.S.Bachs and Beethoven's lasting impact as good and enhancing.

Had Clifford Brown not been called by the Gods at age 26, he could have become the lasting positive counterweight.

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

spaceray
12-06-2002, 09:20 PM
Had Clifford Brown not been called by the Gods at age 26, he could have become the lasting positive counterweight.

[/B][/QUOTE]

It's a crying shame that Clifford Brown died so young ,what a magnificent talent.

There are some very amusing stories about Louis Armstrong in a great book by Mezz Mezzrow titled "Really the Blues" I don't think you may believe all of the tales but they are very funny to read.

Chaszz
12-06-2002, 09:21 PM
Originally posted by dice45:
Louis Armstrong, agreed, had huge impact, he was the 1st protagonist to make Jazz popular and brought a quite different, unique feeling to people.
But most of his impact was inside the musician's community hence expert2expert level IMO. Sad to say so: Paul Whiteman had a much bigger impact.
I personally do not adore Armstrong as musician, i find him too nice, too streamlined. I like Chicago style very much, this is the last era in Jazz with collective improvisations. I am a great fan of Bix Beiderbecke. Beiderbecke had a remarkable impact on fellow musicians as well as on public minds, considered that it was only 3 years between his rise and his death.
But talking about Jazz, there comes another evil genius in mind: Charlie "Bird" Parker.
Louis Armstrong and Charlie Parker are the only two Jazz musicians deeply influencing all other Jazz instrumentalists and not only those playing trumpet in one case and alto sax in the other.
Parker's impact on lifestyle, on the public man, particularly young people i consider as genuinely evil.


Bernhard,

When you say Louis Armstrong is "too nice and steamlined", are you familiar with the Hot Five and Hot Seven records of 1925-1928? These are earthy and searing, not "nice", in my judgment.

These records not only heavily influenced all jazz musicians but sold like hotcakes everywhere, and Louis was mobbed when he went to Europe a few years later. Also, as music, they defined jazz, turning it from a folk music into a soloist's art music, singlehandedly, while still maintaining the New Orleans collective ensemble in the beginning and ending choruses.

Plus as swing, compare any other musician circa 1923-24, even Sidney Bechet, with Louis' sense of swing on the King Oliver and Clarence Williams records of those years. No comparison.

On Charlie Parker, you are right. The only later jazz soloist who could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with the young Armstrong, he squandered his genius on fast living.

And Bix, also. A great player, a great squanderer.

When you put forth Paul Whiteman as more important than Louis, and talk at length about the effect the artist had on the people of his time, you are making the man-in-the-street the arbiter of artistic accomplishment. This makes Britney Spears the ultimate of the present day -- but as an artist?? I don't think so. Besides, Louis' influence can still be heard all over today, and Paul Whiteman? Where? The effect which the artist has on posterity is much more important than the effect on his own time.

The ancient Greek sculptor Polykleitos made two statues -- one incorporating the advice and suggestions of ordinary people, and another privately on his own. Afterward, everyone was united in saying the first one was awful, and the second one beautiful.

dice45
12-06-2002, 10:38 PM
Chazz,
yeah, i know those Armstrong recordings.
Yes, they are a bit more funky.

Concerning Paul Whileman, ROTFLMAO, well, if i wear my historian's glasses, i try not to let the view blur by wishful thinking.

Hmmmh, did i call Whiteman an artist? Cannot remember [cheeky http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif]

When Whiteman was the masses adored star, Armstrong was but a musician's musician.
When Armstrong later became a bit more popular, the funkyness was gone down the tubes and it was gleeful entertainment only.
Well, Europeans always were after the genuine honest Jazz and not that fond the Popular/Entertainment field, stylistically in direct proximity to Jazz back then.
Many Jazz fans i talked to put Armstrong in the proximity of the obedient nigger in "Uncle Tom's hut" by M.Beecher-Stowe. I cannot comment that, never read that book.
So Armstrong's entertainment did not win him friends only, shellac records circling around with Armstrong's Jazz on it.

Mobbing: from your profile i see you are from NYC http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif you have to explain to me what you understand by that term. Mobbing to me is NeoGermanEnglish as used by the YUPPIEs, the self-important ones. Mobbing has a much wider meaning in Germany than what my dictionary (Collins/Pons Unabridged) tells me. "Mobbing" we use for all sorts, methods, techniques of harrassment and bullying a co-worker out of company in the professional field.

You are right with Armstrong's swing for yourself. I am hooked by Bix' swing and even more, by his imaginative phrasing. On par with Bird and Brownie. And i am not naming a 3rd on that level, even if Sonny Rollins' name crosses my mind.

As you live in NYC, it should be no problem for you to get a copy of "The Dean Benedetti recordings of Charlie Parker" (on Mosaic records) 6 vinyl discs crammed full of Bird's solos and a few of Benedetti.
Then you listen to all 6 records in a row. Now that's a treatment http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Greets,
Bernhard

[This message has been edited by dice45 (edited December 06, 2002).]

spaceray
12-06-2002, 11:32 PM
Great Canadian Choral composers,Charles Harriss ,Percival Illsley,Healey Willan,Claude Vivier,Godfrey Ridout,Harry Somers,Harry Freedman,Violet Archer,Jean Coultard and R Murray Schafer.I venture to say these will be names you have never heard before.

spaceray
12-07-2002, 04:36 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
[

The ancient Greek sculptor Polykleitos made two statues -- one incorporating the advice and suggestions of ordinary people, and another privately on his own. Afterward, everyone was united in saying the first one was awful, and the second one beautiful. [/B]

Chaszz,this was brilliant!!!

Rod
12-07-2002, 03:54 PM
Originally posted by Peter:


It is incredible to think Handel wrote around 40 operas and 20 oratorios of which hardly anything is ever performed. I was wondering if Rod could recommend a list of what he considers the best of the operas and oratorios?


They are all good from what I have heard, but of the oratorios you will recall I have mentioned Israel in Egypt, Solomon, Theodora and Jephtha recently. Also consider Saul and The Triumph of Time and Truth (the latter, in Italian, is a bargain on Naxos and is 3 disks filled with absolute gems - if you don't like this you'll never like any Handel). Also consider the odes and masques - Acis and Galatea, Alexanders Feast, L'Allegro, il Penseroso ed il Moderato. These are more poetic (thanks to the texts). Of the operas Orlando, Ariodante, Serse, Julius Ceasar, Alcina. It's more difficult to choose here, the operas are typically the most dramatic pieces. If you're in England HMV have a sale on and many of these very expensive items are half price or less. I have bought most of the operas in sales, so ridiculously expensive are they priced. Of the church music Dixit Dominus and the Chandos Anthems will not fail to delight. You can't really fail with Handel regardless of what piece you think about, for he has a winning dramatic formula, but if your're considering buying anything on CD ask me first! But the Penguin and Grammophone guides are reliable for Handel, if not Beethoven!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin




[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 07, 2002).]

Chaszz
12-09-2002, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by dice45:
Chazz,
yeah, i know those Armstrong recordings.
Yes, they are a bit more funky.

Concerning Paul Whileman, ROTFLMAO, well, if i wear my historian's glasses, i try not to let the view blur by wishful thinking.

Hmmmh, did i call Whiteman an artist? Cannot remember [cheeky http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif]

When Whiteman was the masses adored star, Armstrong was but a musician's musician.
When Armstrong later became a bit more popular, the funkyness was gone down the tubes and it was gleeful entertainment only.
Well, Europeans always were after the genuine honest Jazz and not that fond the Popular/Entertainment field, stylistically in direct proximity to Jazz back then.
Many Jazz fans i talked to put Armstrong in the proximity of the obedient nigger in "Uncle Tom's hut" by M.Beecher-Stowe. I cannot comment that, never read that book.
So Armstrong's entertainment did not win him friends only, shellac records circling around with Armstrong's Jazz on it.

Mobbing: from your profile i see you are from NYC http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif you have to explain to me what you understand by that term. Mobbing to me is NeoGermanEnglish as used by the YUPPIEs, the self-important ones. Mobbing has a much wider meaning in Germany than what my dictionary (Collins/Pons Unabridged) tells me. "Mobbing" we use for all sorts, methods, techniques of harrassment and bullying a co-worker out of company in the professional field.

You are right with Armstrong's swing for yourself. I am hooked by Bix' swing and even more, by his imaginative phrasing. On par with Bird and Brownie. And i am not naming a 3rd on that level, even if Sonny Rollins' name crosses my mind.

As you live in NYC, it should be no problem for you to get a copy of "The Dean Benedetti recordings of Charlie Parker" (on Mosaic records) 6 vinyl discs crammed full of Bird's solos and a few of Benedetti.
Then you listen to all 6 records in a row. Now that's a treatment http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif



Whoa, you talk about Bix's imaginative phrasing, but when speaking of Armstrong, all you give him credit for is funkyness?
The Hot Fives and Sevens have the most imaginative solos (and ensemble lead playing) anywhere in jazz, except for Charlie Parker.

Also, don't worry, I've heard plenty of Charlie Parker, and love his work also.

'Mobbed' in Americanese English means surrounded by a large, eager, grasping crowd of fans, as in Sinatra/Paramount Theatre or Beatles/1964.

As for the rest of your Armstrong observation here, I have replied in a posting on the Dream Concert thread.

Chaszz
12-09-2002, 05:25 PM
Back, temporarily at least, to the main business of this thread. First a quote on Bach's music from Goethe (who is making multiple appearances today elsewhere in this forum):

"It is as though eternal harmony were conversing with itself, as it may have happened in God's bosom shortly before he created the world. Thus profoundly was my soul stirred and I felt as if I had neither eyes nor ears nor any other senses, and had no need of them."

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

Another movement or two from this Suite will appear here soon.

Chaszz
12-09-2002, 05:36 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

[/B]

I'm sorry that the highs sound a little distorted here compared with the CD. I'll have to try to find a better ripping program.

Joy
12-09-2002, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

"It is as though eternal harmony were conversing with itself, as it may have happened in God's bosom shortly before he created the world. Thus profoundly was my soul stirred and I felt as if I had neither eyes nor ears nor any other senses, and had no need of them."

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

[/B]

What a beautiful quote and how true especially of this music. One of my all time absolute favourites of Bach. Simply beautiful.

Joy

Rod
12-11-2002, 01:54 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

2. Here is the lovely Air from Bach's Orchestral Suite #3, the well-known "Air on the G String" (although its orginal key is D):

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Air.mp3

Another movement or two from this Suite will appear here soon.


And what is the selling point of this famous piece? Why its very simplicity of course, which results in a much stronger melodic line. If only he had always composed in this manner. Of course it is harder to succeed in finding this simplicity when the temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics. Perhaps this explains B's initial lack of enthusiasm for the fugal form - ie it (at least the traditional German form of it) was too 'easy'.

Talking of 'thinning out' notes, Beethoven through his revision of his original version of op18/1, which you will all hear soon(ish!) on the rare page, did precisely that. The revision is much thinned out compared to the original (although the original could be construed as more conventionally dramatic). With Handel it seems to me this thinning out was a natural part of his music writing whether it be largo or allegro.

I think the general move to a greater simplicity and subtlety of harmony is a fundamental part of the nature of Beethoven's later works.

PS you will have the good fortune of hearing another Handel piece when B's arrangement of H's Overture for Solomon is presented at the 'rare' page, for I will kindly upload the original (one of my favourite H pieces) at Peter's link to the page at this forum. This piece too is a testimony to simplicity.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin


[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 11, 2002).]

Chaszz
12-11-2002, 04:28 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
And what is the selling point of this famous piece? Why its very simplicity of course, which results in a much stronger melodic line. If only he had always composed in this manner. Of course it is harder to succeed in finding this simplicity when the temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics.

The 'selling point' is beauty. Many simple melodic lines are not therefore automatically beautiful. To posit simplicity as an absolute value would be like saying Greek temples as a class are beautiful and Gothic cathedrals are not, because the latter are too complex. Each must be judged on its own premises, not on any standard imposed from the outside which may have nothing to do with the artist's intentions.

To call all of Bach's counterpoint mathematical in nature is wrong. In some didactic keyboard pieces, which Sorrano prefers, this can be fruitfully argued, and the result may be intellectual satisfaction rather than emotional fulfillment, as Sorrano points out. But you will notice I haven't put any of these up. In the religious music and the secular orchestral works the counterpoint is used emotionally. The various strands support and push the emotion forward; try again the Cum Sanctu Spiritu from page 3 of this thread (do a find on 'www'). If this is mathematical obfuscation rather than great emotion then I am the King of Siam. The many who love and have loved Bach are not mostly moved by mathematical satisfaction. It is time to realize that unforunately not everyone can see the forest; some can only see the trees.



'The temptation is all too easy to stick notes everywhere in a mass of contrapuntal mathematics.' This may be your judgment of what Bach does with polyphony, but unfortunately some cannot see the forest for the trees. I refer you again to the Cum Sanctu Spiritu on Page 3 of this thread, or to a new posting from the B Minor Mass:
www.zigmund.com/DonaN.mp3 (http://www.zigmund.com/DonaN.mp3)

In these the emotion is amplified, not scattered, by the mutually supporting voices of the counterpoint. There may be intellectual exercises in the didactic works for keyboard which Sorrano favors, but in the religious music and the secular orchestral music it is emotion which fuels the counterpoint.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Chaszz
12-11-2002, 04:31 PM
I regret in the above posting the text should end at the first mention of the forest and the trees. The rest of it is a draft of an earlier version and should not have appeared. I can't seem to ever get these right the first time. This is why I never put in a suffix saying "This has been edited by..."; I am badly in need of an editor.

Rod
12-11-2002, 04:35 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I regret in the above posting the text should end at the first mention of the forest and the trees. The rest of it is a draft of an earlier version and should not have appeared. I can't seem to ever get these right the first time. This is why I never put in a suffix saying "This has been edited by..."; I am badly in need of an editor.

There is an edit button next to the reply button on each post. None of us use editors! Look below, I've just used it (yet again)!


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 11, 2002).]

Rod
12-11-2002, 04:41 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

The 'selling point' is beauty. Many simple melodic lines are not therefore automatically beautiful.


It would not have been so effective had it been lost in a sea of counterpoint as is too often the case with Bach. Put it this way, this track is the most Handelian sounding you've yet posted! Of course Handel wrote dozens of adagios and largos that are at least the equal of this piece. In fact I would go so far to say that Handel IS the largo!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
12-12-2002, 03:01 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
In these the emotion is amplified, not scattered, by the mutually supporting voices of the counterpoint. There may be intellectual exercises in the didactic works for keyboard which Sorrano favors, but in the religious music and the secular orchestral music it is emotion which fuels the counterpoint.



I do have to mention this, that as a pianist I have loathed Bach for his counterpoint. As a composer I have admired Bach for the very same reason. I could listen to his fugues all day, but don't ask me to play them!

Peter
12-12-2002, 03:11 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
I do have to mention this, that as a pianist I have loathed Bach for his counterpoint. As a composer I have admired Bach for the very same reason. I could listen to his fugues all day, but don't ask me to play them!

I have to agree that playing Bach well is no easy task and it takes me far longer to learn and memorise a Bach fugue than almost anything else - part playing though is so important for pianists, and not just in Bach, which is why most teachers have insisted on Bach down the ages, including Beethoven's teacher Neefe.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
12-13-2002, 02:03 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I have to agree that playing Bach well is no easy task and it takes me far longer to learn and memorise a Bach fugue than almost anything else - part playing though is so important for pianists, and not just in Bach, which is why most teachers have insisted on Bach down the ages, including Beethoven's teacher Neefe.



Their value as teaching aides is obvious, but as a listener they seem to me to be emotionally detached. A friend of mine played one of these fugues at her home on the piano and I sat and listened with another guy present. She played the piece without fault but I was left utterly unmoved by the experience, yet the others could not contain their joy.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
12-13-2002, 02:13 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Their value as teaching aides is obvious, but as a listener they seem to me to be emotionally detached. A friend of mine played one of these fugues at her home on the piano and I sat and listened with another guy present. She played the piece without fault but I was left utterly unmoved by the experience, yet the others could not contain their joy.



Technical skills are not enough. One could play a Handel or Beethoven piece perfectly, but without expression the performance is virtually worthless. You have complained (and justly) about the many poor performances of Beethoven. I think Bach is largely misunderstood as well.

Peter
12-13-2002, 07:21 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
Technical skills are not enough. One could play a Handel or Beethoven piece perfectly, but without expression the performance is virtually worthless. You have complained (and justly) about the many poor performances of Beethoven. I think Bach is largely misunderstood as well.

I agree entirely - if you look at the score of the 48 there are no dynamics, articulation markings or phrasing, which is how many pianists play them! Personally I find the Preludes more satisfying in general than the fugues, some of which are rather dry and academic.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Joy
12-14-2002, 03:44 PM
I agree. I have a recording of the 48 by Andras Schiff and it's quite pleasant but some I've heard are rather robotic in playing. Same with the Chopin Etudes. I also have a recording of Murray Perahia (Opus 10, Opus 25) of Chopin done excellently in my opinion.

Joy

Rod
12-14-2002, 03:45 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I agree entirely - if you look at the score of the 48 there are no dynamics, articulation markings or phrasing, which is how many pianists play them! Personally I find the Preludes more satisfying in general than the fugues, some of which are rather dry and academic.



Given the nature of the dynamic capabilities of the keyboard instruments Bach would have been familiar with (ie nothing like the Steinway's that were used to play the '48' on BBC2 recently!), can you tell me what Bach may have had in mind in this respect?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
12-14-2002, 03:57 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
Technical skills are not enough. One could play a Handel or Beethoven piece perfectly, but without expression the performance is virtually worthless. You have complained (and justly) about the many poor performances of Beethoven. I think Bach is largely misunderstood as well.

Considering they (my friends as mentioned above) were experiencing 'joy' from the very same interpretation that I regarded as somewhat detached, I think the quality of the performance is not an issue in this case. Clearly they are locking onto something that for me is more an intellectual quality than musical, but they regard it as musical. That is, for me it may be cleverly written, but seldom lasts in the memory as a musicaly satisfying piece overall. The trick is to balance the intellectual element with the aesthetic element. Beethoven is supreme in this respect. I'm not sure if Bach was always interested in this balance. Perhaps he didn't need to be, but for composers regularly in the public domain this balance is essential for some semblance of success.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 14, 2002).]

Sorrano
12-14-2002, 08:07 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Considering they (my friends as mentioned above) were experiencing 'joy' from the very same interpretation that I regarded as somewhat detached, I think the quality of the performance is not an issue in this case. Clearly they are locking onto something that for me is more an intellectual quality than musical, but they regard it as musical. That is, for me it may be cleverly written, but seldom lasts in the memory as a musicaly satisfying piece overall. The trick is to balance the intellectual element with the aesthetic element. Beethoven is supreme in this respect. I'm not sure if Bach was always interested in this balance. Perhaps he didn't need to be, but for composers regularly in the public domain this balance is essential for some semblance of success.




It's hard to know what Bach's interests were in his own music as the majority has little dynamic or interpretive markings if any. The performer has to figure that out on his or her own.

spaceray
12-15-2002, 05:18 AM
Originally posted by Sorrano:

It's hard to know what Bach's interests were in his own music as the majority has little dynamic or interpretive markings if any. The performer has to figure that out on his or her own.

I'm wondering if dynamic or interpretive markings might have been lost in the copying?

Rod
12-15-2002, 03:47 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
I'm wondering if dynamic or interpretive markings might have been lost in the copying?

Probably not, in those days even the choice of instruments was often left to the disgression of the performer/s.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

spaceray
12-15-2002, 04:34 PM
Who exactly were the copyists? were they musicians ,scribes or clerks was it a stand alone profession?I seem to remember reading in Barry Cooper's book on Beethoven that there were often mistakes that were not corrected and not discovered until after publication.

Rod
12-15-2002, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Who exactly were the copyists? were they musicians ,scribes or clerks was it a stand alone profession?I seem to remember reading in Barry Cooper's book on Beethoven that there were often mistakes that were not corrected and not discovered until after publication.

Certainly in Beethoven's time I think it was a profession in its own right. A good (accurate) copyist was worth his weight in gold to a composer like Beethoven (though I doubt he would have been paid in this manner!).

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 15, 2002).]

spaceray
12-16-2002, 03:03 AM
But the copyist could make a decent living at it ?

Peter
12-16-2002, 10:20 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Given the nature of the dynamic capabilities of the keyboard instruments Bach would have been familiar with (ie nothing like the Steinway's that were used to play the '48' on BBC2 recently!), can you tell me what Bach may have had in mind in this respect?



How can I tell you what he had in mind? If you look at Czerny's edition of the 48 which he claimed was based on Beethoven's interpretations it is very heavily edited with all sorts of dynamic and articulation markings. All I can say is that a musical phrase has a natural rise and fall - as you would sing it so you should play it is a good rule! So the only way to interpret a Bach prelude is through analysis - determining the lengths of phrases and the centre of phrases and of course the harmony. Then their is the question of touch, which is based on the character of the piece. We can do no more than that, but even if Bach would have disagreed with the result, he would have at least respected an attempt at a musical realisation rather than simply playing the notes.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
12-16-2002, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
How can I tell you what he had in mind?



You previous comment inferred (to me) that you had some ideas on how Bach's music should be interpretated. I was getting more at the point of the nature of the instruments used rather than dynamic notes on paper. What Czerny wrote I presume was for the piano, but I'm sure the harpsichord would have been the 'instrument of the day' for Bach's exercises.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
12-16-2002, 02:23 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
You previous comment inferred (to me) that you had some ideas on how Bach's music should be interpretated. I was getting more at the point of the nature of the instruments used rather than dynamic notes on paper. What Czerny wrote I presume was for the piano, but I'm sure the harpsichord would have been the 'instrument of the day' for Bach's exercises.



Well Bach did not specify Harpsichord for the 48 - they are written for Clavier, which is a deliberately chosen general term meaning for keyboard. I really don't think the nature of the harpsichord is an issue when playing the 48 - much of Bach's music was arranged by himself for different combinations. It certainly wasn't an issue for Beethoven, nor according to Czerny's edition was the way he played them influenced by the harpsichord manner of playing, as the markings look straight out of a Beethoven sonata complete with the odd sforzando thrown in!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Peter
12-16-2002, 02:26 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
You previous comment inferred (to me) that you had some ideas on how Bach's music should be interpretated.

I do have ideas on that which I explained in the earlier thread.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Sorrano
12-16-2002, 02:28 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
I'm wondering if dynamic or interpretive markings might have been lost in the copying?

Musicians in those days understood how the music was to be played--when to include ornamentation such as trills and turns--and in many cases had to know the chordal progression as all they had was a single note bass line.

Sorrano
12-16-2002, 02:29 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Who exactly were the copyists? were they musicians ,scribes or clerks was it a stand alone profession?I seem to remember reading in Barry Cooper's book on Beethoven that there were often mistakes that were not corrected and not discovered until after publication.


I suspect that in many cases the composer was the copyist. Remember that Bach went blind from copying scores. Or so they say.

Chaszz
12-16-2002, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Well Bach did not specify Harpsichord for the 48 - they are written for Clavier, which is a deliberately chosen general term meaning for keyboard. I really don't think the nature of the harpsichord is an issue when playing the 48 - much of Bach's music was arranged by himself for different combinations. It certainly wasn't an issue for Beethoven, nor according to Czerny's edition was the way he played them influenced by the harpsichord manner of playing, as the markings look straight out of a Beethoven sonata complete with the odd sforzando thrown in!



I didn't realize that Beethoven valued the '48' so much as to labor over dynamic markings. We should remember that (as far as I know) Beethoven knew none of Bach's mighty church music except for perhaps a few simple motets and chorales. The bulk of Bach's surviving music was in a trunk in some attic. To repeat the remark with which I began this dispute some months ago, I think that if Beethoven had known the B Minor Mass, the Passions and Canatas, that he would have been stunned, his music would have been more polyphonic, and Handel would have shared the throne with Bach in Beethoven's estimation.

Peter
12-16-2002, 02:38 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I didn't realize that Beethoven valued the '48' so much as to labor over dynamic markings. We should remember that (as far as I know) Beethoven knew none of Bach's mighty church music except for perhaps a few simple motets and chorales. The bulk of Bach's surviving music was in a trunk in some attic. To repeat the remark with which I began this dispute some months ago, I think that if Beethoven had known the B Minor Mass, the Passions and Canatas, that he would have been stunned, his music would have been more polyphonic, and Handel would have shared the throne with Bach in Beethoven's estimation.



I think Beethoven did know at least some of the B minor mass. As to the '48' he was introduced to them as a child by Neefe and was fully aware of their value - as the greatest piano virtuoso of his day I think it is inconceivable that he would have performed anything in an unmusical manner.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited December 16, 2002).]

Rod
12-20-2002, 02:32 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I think that if Beethoven had known the B Minor Mass, the Passions and Canatas, that he would have been stunned, his music would have been more polyphonic, and Handel would have shared the throne with Bach in Beethoven's estimation.



None of Bachs Passions outshines Messiah, and Handel wrote a few pieces in my opinion better than this.

Call me My Crazy, but I prefer B's Solemn Mass to the B Minor.

What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 20, 2002).]

Chaszz
12-20-2002, 04:39 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?



In all honesty I must admit I've enjoyed Beethoven's late quartets, I believe Opus 127 and 131, but was not moved by them onto the Olympian plane that everyone refers to when speaking of them. I have not heard the one with the Grosse Fugue for many years and did not react to it much when I did hear it. I am under no belief that this is anything but shortcoming on my part; I have no doubt they are works of supreme genius from everything I've heard and read about them.

I also have not reacted much to the late piano sonatas (again no doubt my own shortcoming) so in general I have moved his late works onto my back burner and not done much listening there, planning to at some time in the future. So I don't even know much about them in general.

What other late fugues are you referring to?

Rod
12-20-2002, 05:03 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:

What other late fugues are you referring to?



Well other than the quartets and last sonatas there is the fugue finale of the cello sonata op107/2. There is also a rarely heard, but excellent, fugue for string quintet. Then one could also consider the fugual treatment in sections of the Solemn Mass and the 9th Symphony amd the Diabelli Variations.

Your rather luke-warm reaction to B's polyphonic treatment is as I would have expected, it being light years away from the world of Bach even when he uses archaic sounding themes. Nevertheless I am surprised that you put these late pieces on the 'back burner' for in many respects they are on occasion more backward looking (ie to the baroque era) than his earlier works.

However there's no point in saying 'well Beethoven would have composed differently if he had heard more Bach'. I would just simply say I just don't like this stuff from Beethoven and prefer Bach. One must just the compositions as they stand (or fall).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 20, 2002).]

Chaszz
12-20-2002, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by Rod:

However there's no point in saying 'well Beethoven would have composed differently if he had heard more Bach'. I would just simply say I just don't like this stuff from Beethoven and prefer Bach. One must just the compositions as they stand (or fall).


I certainly didn't mean to imply that Beethoven would have composed BETTER if he had heard more Bach. I simply think he would have used more polyphony in his major works in general, and thru him the rest of the 19th C. composers, without implying a value judgment. I can hardly see how he could have composed better than he did.

(I find it interesting that both Beethoven and Mozart were experimenting with polyphony just before they died, Mozart in the great final movement of Jupiter symphony.)

The polyphony in the 9th Symphony has always been wonderful to my ears, along with every last note of that work.

As for my not liking B.'s late works in general especially, I certainly don't intend to leave that there. I'm not about to miss such divine bliss (from what I read and hear) because I can't respond to it initially, or its not to my immediate taste. Thanks for the list of works.

Sorrano
12-21-2002, 09:14 PM
Originally posted by Rod:


What do you think of Beethoven's late fugues in relation to Bach's?



Some of my favorite fugues occur in the Gloria and Credo of the Missa Solemnis.

Rod
12-24-2002, 12:25 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
Some of my favorite fugues occur in the Gloria and Credo of the Missa Solemnis.

In my list above I missed out the most obvious piece - The overture 'Consecration of the House' wherebe B gives a vigourous and lengthy fugual treatment to a theme of Handel's.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
12-24-2002, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
In my list above I missed out the most obvious piece - The overture 'Consecration of the House' wherebe B gives a vigourous and lengthy fugual treatment to a theme of Handel's.



And that is one overture (plus the chorus) that I don't listen to enough!

Chaszz
12-24-2002, 04:57 PM
A reminder that www.wkcr.org (http://www.wkcr.org) is playing Bach round the clock this week. I am listening now to a Cantata I never heard before and am melting from the beauty... A happy holiday to all...Chaszz

Rod
12-29-2002, 01:48 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:
And that is one overture (plus the chorus) that I don't listen to enough!

Hey, this chain is going again, 189.

Get the Hanover Band set with the overtures disk - the overture is fantastic in this recording, much better than anything else I have heard. I have a recording of the rarely heard chorus/dance but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
12-30-2002, 02:35 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Hey, this chain is going again, 189.

Get the Hanover Band set with the overtures disk - the overture is fantastic in this recording, much better than anything else I have heard. I have a recording of the rarely heard chorus/dance but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.




I've got it already. And just got in the Norrington. As a rule I listen to the Eroica of each new set to get a feel for how I might like the particular conductor. With Norrington I was not too impressed--but only listened to the exposition of the first movement. When I have more time I will give it another listen. (What I heard of the 8th on the radio I thought absolutely fantastic.)

spaceray
12-30-2002, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Rod:


but the singing from the soloist is so awful I refrained from including it in the 'rare page' list.



That's as may be but if you think the soloist is awful I would probably LOVE it.Did I suggest to you to listen to C Bartoli sing Vivaldi,I must have been temporarily insane,or suffering from chocolate madness.
With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

Chaszz
12-30-2002, 05:03 PM
As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3

Joy
12-30-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3

Very nice, Chaszz. Really enjoyed it a lot. 'Joyful' is right! Thanks! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Joy

Rod
12-31-2002, 01:24 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Well Bach did not specify Harpsichord for the 48 - they are written for Clavier, which is a deliberately chosen general term meaning for keyboard. I really don't think the nature of the harpsichord is an issue when playing the 48 - much of Bach's music was arranged by himself for different combinations. It certainly wasn't an issue for Beethoven, nor according to Czerny's edition was the way he played them influenced by the harpsichord manner of playing, as the markings look straight out of a Beethoven sonata complete with the odd sforzando thrown in!



Then if Bach was not too concerned with the instrumentation then he was not too concerned with the interpretation. Not surprising considering their primary purpose as technical excercises - at least this is what they sound like to me. That being said I'd rather hear them on an old 'keyboard' than a new one!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
12-31-2002, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by Sorrano:

I've got it already. And just got in the Norrington. As a rule I listen to the Eroica of each new set to get a feel for how I might like the particular conductor. With Norrington I was not too impressed--but only listened to the exposition of the first movement. When I have more time I will give it another listen. (What I heard of the 8th on the radio I thought absolutely fantastic.)

The Norrington set is something of a mixed bag, hence it is not my first recommendation, the sound quality is variable too, but is a very good deal now it's reissued on Virgin at sub-Naxos price. I suggest you give the 3rd a few listenings to. I don't think you'd like my recommendation of Savals recording on Astree!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
12-31-2002, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
That's as may be but if you think the soloist is awful I would probably LOVE it.Did I suggest to you to listen to C Bartoli sing Vivaldi,I must have been temporarily insane,or suffering from chocolate madness.
With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

There are some incredibly high notes for the soloist and she simply has not the range - a purely technical issue. You would agree if you heard it. I'll keep an ear open for Bartoli however.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
12-31-2002, 01:56 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:

With a clearer head I beg you ,please please
offer more "Rare Pages"more Handel,more Beethoven!

Well considering the response to my previous Handel efforts offered here, I don't think this page is quite ready for them yet. When a collective taste for Baroque is developed beyond that of 'easy listening' I may reconsider. I'll generously continue with the Beethoven. Of course you'll get the Solomon overture at the posting for the next rare piece, Beethoven's arrangement of the fugue section from this piece.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited December 31, 2002).]

Chaszz
12-31-2002, 02:30 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
When a collective taste for Baroque is developed beyond that of 'easy listening' I may reconsider.


I'd just like to mention that I am not bothering to reply to every calumnous slur upon the good name of Bach which comes from this direction. I consider that I have done what I can in this cause, and have not made any progress. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. You can plant seeds in the ground and water it, but if it is not fertile, nothing will grow. I will put up tracks from time to time, but will not waste my energy replying to all these goads, provocations and insults that are hurled in Bach's direction. Only occasionally will I react, as in this case, saying that 'easy listening' is ANYTHING but a description of Bach's music.

spaceray
12-31-2002, 04:32 PM
Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

Gurn Blanston
01-01-2003, 01:42 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Then if Bach was not too concerned with the instrumentation then he was not too concerned with the interpretation. Not surprising considering their primary purpose as technical excercises - at least this is what they sound like to me. That being said I'd rather hear them on an old 'keyboard' than a new one!



What a delight to be #200 on Rod's thread! I feel immortal! I have judiciously refrained from posting here, but I must wonder about this one. Much, if not most, baroque music was not written for a specific instrument, but rather for the instruments within the range and with a capability of playing the music. So the implication that if one doesn't care about the instrumentation, then one doesn't care about the interpretation does not really hold water, IMO. In addition to the main line being for a variety of instruments, the continuuo line can be bassoon, bass viol, harpsichord or whatever else can play it, and it frequently is not even written out, merely implied. Beethoven actually did the same with his Wind & String Septet, which is often accompanied by double bass in the style of the day, making it a perfectly acceptable octet. As for them being technical excersises, in fact, they were! At least many of them, such as "Art of the Fugue", which I have in an absolutely splendid version of by the Juilliard String Quartet, of all people. The fact was that Bach wrote many of these pieces for no one's entertainment except his own, and he was so bloody good at it that people have been playing and listening to them for 250 years AS entertainment. This is not to champion Bach, BTW, since I am an advocate of later styles as I have stated before, but fair is fair, and even though I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, he could sure put a fugue together! That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

Andrea
01-01-2003, 08:23 AM
Congratulations Rod and welcome to the "Over 200 Club". George Frideric would be proud...

Joy
01-01-2003, 03:26 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

I play his Menuet (very nice) and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring which I enjoy very much especially at this time of year. What songs are in your book? I may look into it.

By the way (FYI) On this day in 1782 - JS Bach dies in London.

Joy


[This message has been edited by Joy (edited January 01, 2003).]

Sorrano
01-01-2003, 07:08 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
As promised a few days ago, here is the joyful Bouree from Bach's 3rd Suite for Orchestra in D. (This is the Suite which also contains the famous Air, later adapted for violin G string, which I posted awhile ago).

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_Orch_Suite_3_Bouree.mp3


Nice! This comes from one who has not always cared for Bach's orchestral works.

Chaszz
01-02-2003, 02:19 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Say,this thread really is going again!
Chaszz,I loved the piece of Bach that you offered and keep it handy on my desk top for frequent listenings,I love the St Matthew Passion and always find myself in tears over it.For Christmas I got a book of elementary piano pieces of Bach and have already learned the minuet in G (I play it very badly).

Speceray, I'm glad you're enjoying those. It is not you I was reacting to. It was only the starter of the thread that my response was directed at. To repeat, in the future I will as usual note every veiled and unveiled slur upon Bach, but will only react occasionally in words.

Chaszz
01-02-2003, 02:25 AM
Originally posted by Joy:
I
By the way (FYI) On this day in 1782 - JS Bach dies in London.

Joy


Joy, JS Bach died in 1750. It may be his son, Johann Christian, you're referring to. He is known as the 'London Bach'.

Chaszz

Chaszz
01-02-2003, 02:37 AM
I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, he could sure put a fugue together! Regards, Gurn

Gurn, the allegro of Bach's violin concerto in E major is one of the treasures of music, IMHO. And not far behind is the Concerto for Two Violins in D minor, with a wonderful allegro followed by one of the most sublime andantes anywhere. I shall be posting tracks of these soon, if I can locate versions that are not taken too fast, as is the practice with much of the original-instruments people.

It is beginning to be a little surprising to me that many members seem to know Bach mainly as a contrapuntalist with a theoretical bent, when there are so many examples of other sides to his output that are by turns passionate, humanizing, warm and tender. I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.

Gurn Blanston
01-02-2003, 03:06 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
Gurn, the allegro of Bach's violin concerto in E major is one of the treasures of music, IMHO. And not far behind is the Concerto for Two Violins in D minor, with a wonderful allegro followed by one of the most sublime andantes anywhere. I shall be posting tracks of these soon, if I can locate versions that are not taken too fast, as is the practice with much of the original-instruments people.

It is beginning to be a little surprising to me that many members seem to know Bach mainly as a contrapuntalist with a theoretical bent, when there are so many examples of other sides to his output that are by turns passionate, humanizing, warm and tender. I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.



Chaszz,
Yeah, I know, and I don't mean to be the pigeon on the statue either. It's just that the Violin Concerto was my first love as a genre and brought me into classical music, so I am , I don't know, 'picky' about it, I guess. I have the three concertos several times over by some pretty good fiddlers (Stern, Perlman, Menuhin, Heifetz etc.) who are, I know, not baroque specialists, but I have to say, as a matter of personal taste, that they, and Brandenburg #3 which is another VC really, just sound like a lot of crosscut saws trying to cut the instrument in two. I realize that this is a major failing on my part and I stand humble before you, but there it is. I DO have some good baroque fiddle music (Tartini, Biber, Telemann, Matteis etc.) but they are played on period instruments, and I have heard that one of the best of these players, Andrew Manze, has done Bach recently, so maybe I will give it another shot. After all, millions over centuries must be on to something.
Regards, Gurn

Rod
01-02-2003, 02:55 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
What a delight to be #200 on Rod's thread! I feel immortal! I have judiciously refrained from posting here, but I must wonder about this one. Much, if not most, baroque music was not written for a specific instrument, but rather for the instruments within the range and with a capability of playing the music. So the implication that if one doesn't care about the instrumentation, then one doesn't care about the interpretation does not really hold water, IMO. In addition to the main line being for a variety of instruments, the continuuo line can be bassoon, bass viol, harpsichord or whatever else can play it, and it frequently is not even written out, merely implied. Beethoven actually did the same with his Wind & String Septet, which is often accompanied by double bass in the style of the day, making it a perfectly acceptable octet. As for them being technical excersises, in fact, they were! At least many of them, such as "Art of the Fugue", which I have in an absolutely splendid version of by the Juilliard String Quartet, of all people. The fact was that Bach wrote many of these pieces for no one's entertainment except his own, and he was so bloody good at it that people have been playing and listening to them for 250 years AS entertainment. This is not to champion Bach, BTW, since I am an advocate of later styles as I have stated before, but fair is fair, and even though I don't believe the man could write a violin concerto worth a damn, he could sure put a fugue together! That's my opinion, I may be wrong.
Regards, Gurn

My comment concerning Bach's interest in the interpretation of these works was not a critisism, just an observation. Handel himself on occasion left much to the taste of the performers in his chamber works.

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 02, 2003).]

Rod
01-02-2003, 02:56 PM
Originally posted by Andrea:
Congratulations Rod and welcome to the "Over 200 Club". George Frideric would be proud...

Have I now a seat on Olympus next to you Andrea?

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Joy
01-02-2003, 03:03 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
Joy, JS Bach died in 1750. It may be his son, Johann Christian, you're referring to. He is known as the 'London Bach'.

Chaszz




You're right, thanks for clearing that up!

Joy

Chaszz
01-02-2003, 03:27 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Chaszz,
Yeah, I know, and I don't mean to be the pigeon on the statue either. It's just that the Violin Concerto was my first love as a genre and brought me into classical music, so I am , I don't know, 'picky' about it, I guess. I have the three concertos several times over by some pretty good fiddlers (Stern, Perlman, Menuhin, Heifetz etc.) who are, I know, not baroque specialists, but I have to say, as a matter of personal taste, that they, and Brandenburg #3 which is another VC really, just sound like a lot of crosscut saws trying to cut the instrument in two. I realize that this is a major failing on my part and I stand humble before you, but there it is. I DO have some good baroque fiddle music (Tartini, Biber, Telemann, Matteis etc.) but they are played on period instruments, and I have heard that one of the best of these players, Andrew Manze, has done Bach recently, so maybe I will give it another shot. After all, millions over centuries must be on to something.
Regards, Gurn

By 'crosscut saws' you may mean Bach's sometime habit of writing a solo part in an unbroken succession of eighth notes, which can get monotonous to some people but doesn't bother others. My aunt and her second husband, whom I described elsewhere, used to compain about this to me. It doesn't bother me because to me the inspired melody is always present.

Be that as it may, here is the first movement of the Violin Concerto in E, in an old recording by the Solisti di Zagreb. I have loved this piece for a long time. The main theme to me is really classical in that it evokes feelings of the spirit of ancient Greek sculpture and architecture, in its joy, beautiful rhythm and songful phrasing. The development section makes wonderful progressions thru the relative minor and back to the major and back and forth again, with the violin sometimes floating above the rhythmic accompaniment like a cloud above the horizon. This ends with the return to the theme, like a songbird landing on a favorite branch.
http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

spaceray
01-02-2003, 03:38 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joy:
[B] I play his Menuet (very nice) and Jesu, Joy of Man's Desiring which I enjoy very much especially at this time of year. What songs are in your book? I may look into it.

It is titled "My first book of Classical Music" and offers "29 Themes by Beethoven Mozart ,Chopin and other great composers in Easy Piano Arrangements" published by Dover I have learned the Bach Minuet as well as "Sheep May Safely Graze" and have just started to work on Beethoven's Minuet in G .
My teacher says the book is a bit too advanced for me(we are only six months into this)he suggests I wait a bit before moveing on with this.Also this Christmas some wag bought me the"Moonlight Sonata" all three movements also a Dover publication very expensive and beautiful however I have prudently returned it and bought the Oxford Dictonary Of Music Terms in infinantly more usefull volume I venture to say.

Joy
01-03-2003, 12:12 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:

It is titled "My first book of Classical Music" and offers "29 Themes by Beethoven Mozart ,Chopin and other great composers in Easy Piano Arrangements" published by Dover I have learned the Bach Minuet as well as "Sheep May Safely Graze" and have just started to work on Beethoven's Minuet in G .

[/B]

Thanks. I also like 'Sheep May Safely Graze' and have it but have not yet found time on my agenda to learn it. I have it on my piano so it's one of my next pieces to learn when I can find the time. Lovely piece.
I also play the 'Minuet in G'. Good luck with it.

Joy

spaceray
01-03-2003, 04:25 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I shall have to keep putting more tracks up.



Yes please do Chaszz,I have put your last offering on the computer at work and listen to it while I write the menus for the day.

Gurn Blanston
01-03-2003, 01:45 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
My comment concerning Bach's interest in the interpretation of these works was not a critisism, just an observation. Handel himself on occasion left much to the taste of the performers in his chamber works.

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.



Rod,
The theme recycling bit interests me in that I was reading the New Grove (B of course) last night, and Alan Tyson who was reviewing the works portion went on to list a whole panoply of areas where B did the same. I don't have it with me to enumerate now, but he would describe a theme and then say "and it is the same as it used here and here and here etc." My guess is that this was a fairly widespread and acceptable practice.
Actually, I don't believe that B scored out the double bass. Once again I haven't the material at hand to offer a quote, but in the liner notes of CPO's Complete CM for Winds, the author notes that the Septet has "bass accompaniment ADDED "ad libitidum", as was the custom of the day", and I can't remeber if it was that work or the Octet (103), that it had been re-scored by another to add the bass 'with Beethoven's knowledge'.
Finally, forgive me for not discerning the nature of your comment, you are not frequently given to idle observation, so I naturally assumed that you were serious. Mea culpa.
Regards, Gurn

Sorrano
01-03-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Rod:

Having listened closely to a Bach violin concerto on the radio just two days ago I have sympathy with you on this issue, though the performance was rough (and yet the presenter described it as 'sublime'!). Whilst on the matter of radio, Classic FM have been playing Handels op6 concertos quite a lot recently, played by the Collegium Musicum 90 - it's the roughest account I have yet heard so avoid it like the plague, not one hint of grace anywhere. Get Hogwood's set with the Handel & Haydn Society on Decca - absolutely first rate.

A major critisism of Handel has been his tendency to 'borrow' old stuff for new works, well I can tell you Bach did just the same, in fact he 'borrowed' a whole cantata minus the recitatives for his Christmas Oratorio.



This morning I was subjected to a rendition of (I think) Canadian Brass playing several Handel overtures. I would much rather have listened to the Collegium Musicum Op. 6 than that! One of the Op. 6 concerti was played last night (Collegium Musicum, in fact) but I wasn't able to listen too closely as I was in traffic.

The criticism regarding usage of old materials in new works is lame. We see Beethoven's Prometheus theme popping up all over for one thing. And, as you mentioned, Bach was notorious for not only using his older works/themes but other composers works/themes in his writing. This sort of thing predates Bach by Centuries, anyway. Many sacred motets were changed to fit secular text. Handel's use of same materials on a repeated basis is not unusual.

Chaszz
01-03-2003, 03:29 PM
With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

Gurn Blanston
01-04-2003, 01:00 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

Chaszz,
That was a much nicer rendition than I have heard before, and your poetic commentary made me try that much harder to give it a fair shot. Sometimes I even disappoint myself! And the strange thing is, I like to think of myself as a fancier of Bach, but his concertos (with the exception of a couple of the Brandenburgs) just don't make it for me. I appreciate your efforts though, and will listen to it again under different circumstances.
Thanks, Gurn

Gurn Blanston
01-04-2003, 01:08 AM
Originally posted by Rod:

As far as I can recall Beethoven actually scored for the double bass in his septet!



Rod, just got home and checked out that CPO disk I mentioned earlier. The Septet was arranged as an Octet with double bass added in 1812 by Georg Drushetzky with B's approval. In any case, this is not an "I told you so", it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier that arrangments were commonly changed around even with the composer's knowledge and/or approval, but you have now rendered this all moot by saying you didn't mean that, so the heck with it. ;-))
Regards, Gurn

Rod
01-04-2003, 02:46 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod, just got home and checked out that CPO disk I mentioned earlier. The Septet was arranged as an Octet with double bass added in 1812 by Georg Drushetzky with B's approval. In any case, this is not an "I told you so", it gets back to the point I was trying to make earlier that arrangments were commonly changed around even with the composer's knowledge and/or approval, but you have now rendered this all moot by saying you didn't mean that, so the heck with it. ;-))
Regards, Gurn

I really don't get all this octet business you are talking about, every recording of op20 is a SEPTET INCLUDING THE BASS! Perhaps you are thinking of a different work (though I can think of no other septet for winds and strings by Beethoven!)? If not what was the original scoring in your mind of this septet without the bass?

The septet op20 consists of the clarinet, bassoon, horn, violin, viola, cello and bass.


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 04, 2003).]

Gurn Blanston
01-04-2003, 03:12 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I really don't get all this octet business you are talking about, every recording of op20 is a SEPTET INCLUDING THE BASS! Perhaps you are thinking of a different work (though I can think of no other septet for winds and strings by Beethoven!)? If not what was the original scoring in your mind of this septet without the bass?

The septet op20 consists of the clarinet, bassoon, horn, violin, viola, cello and bass.



Rod,
The arrangement you list is the way B wrote it. 1812 it wa rearranged (with B's knowledge) for 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 oboes 2 bassoons and double bass, and was frequently played in that arrangement. I have both of those as well as the B Op 38 arrangement for pinao trio (with violin or clarinet). It was also arrnaged for string quintet and frequently played that way, although I don't have that version yet. The point being that the arrangement was less important than the music, I guess. It was the popularity of the piece itself, which he was not particularly fond of (I don't understand that) that B didn't care for, not the frequent rearrangements.
Regards, Gurn

Joy
01-04-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
With all the distinguished conversation appearing here in the last day or so (this thread does seemed to have a real life of its own) it occurs to me that some may have missed my MP3 posting of the first movement from Bach's E Major Violin Concerto, which was put up only yesterday but is now buried some ways above. At the risk of redundancy I'll list it again

http://www.zigmund.com/Bach_V_C_in_E_1st_Mvmt.mp3

Anyone who wishes to read my deathless commentary on this piece can find it above.

Chaszz, enjoyed this very much. Thanks for posting it and others. Am really enjoying your selections. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Rod
01-04-2003, 04:30 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
The arrangement you list is the way B wrote it. 1812 it wa rearranged (with B's knowledge) for 2 clarinets, 2 horns, 2 oboes 2 bassoons and double bass, and was frequently played in that arrangement. I have both of those as well as the B Op 38 arrangement for pinao trio (with violin or clarinet). It was also arrnaged for string quintet and frequently played that way, although I don't have that version yet. The point being that the arrangement was less important than the music, I guess. It was the popularity of the piece itself, which he was not particularly fond of (I don't understand that) that B didn't care for, not the frequent rearrangements.
Regards, Gurn

Of course this was the way Beethoven wrote it, this was what I was talking about. Your discussion of an octet arrangement with an added bass was misleading as Beethoven already had a bass in the score to start with - your words inferred to me that you thought the original was without a bass and in the arrangement it was added. In fact you stated that you did not believe Beethoven scored for the bass. Given the scoring of the 1812 version that you have at last identified means a virtual rewrite (you initially stated above that the octet was simply the septet with the addition of the bass!), the mentioning of the ad libitum bass in this case seems rather incidental. I am fully aware there are various arrangements made by others of Beethoven pieces made in his lifetime, some of which he corrected personally - some of these are even attriibuted as Beethoven's own and given opus numbers. This point I believe to be a cause of confusion and if these numbers were removed from his opus list altogether I would not complain. PS when you are in a position to say to me 'I told you so' I'll let you know!

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 04, 2003).]

Andrea
01-04-2003, 07:14 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Have I now a seat on Olympus next to you Andrea?



Congratulations, Rod, you have surpassed me. Please take the seat next to me and I welcome you to Olympus.

Gurn Blanston
01-05-2003, 12:49 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
...PS when you are in a position to say to me 'I told you so' I'll let you know!



Rod,
Well, we are all aware that this would never happen under any circumstances, so I wil just remind you that this whole thread began with the rather insipid statement that if a composer didn't care about instrumentation, then he didn't care about interpretation either, which has since been retracted because its author realized that it was ludicrous on the face of it, and went on from there. If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was NOT saying that, but if you choose to take umbrage, so be it. As has been pointed out elsewhere, making assertions based on ones own opinion can be a slippery slope.
Regards, Gurn

Rod
01-05-2003, 03:10 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we are all aware that this would never happen under any circumstances, so I wil just remind you that this whole thread began with the rather insipid statement that if a composer didn't care about instrumentation, then he didn't care about interpretation either, which has since been retracted because its author realized that it was ludicrous on the face of it, and went on from there. If you read my post more carefully, you will see that I was NOT saying that, but if you choose to take umbrage, so be it. As has been pointed out elsewhere, making assertions based on ones own opinion can be a slippery slope.
Regards, Gurn

Believe me, I DO read your posts, hence my total confusion concerning your point with Op20.

If you are refering above to my comment that Bach could not have been too concerned about the interpretation of the '48' then I have certainly retracted nothing. In this particular case my assertion was based on the position that if their primary purpose was as technical excercises (upon reflection I recall that they were originally composed for his son, perhaps someone can confirm this?) then matters of artistic interpretation were less of a concern to Bach. Though with these keyboard pieces I personally see very little necessity for argument about interpretation in any case, other than the nature of the instrument to be used (which I also mentioned in my original point).

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 05, 2003).]

Gurn Blanston
01-05-2003, 03:21 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Believe me, I DO read your posts, hence my total confusion concerning your point with Op20.

If you are refering above to my comment that Bach could not have been too concerned about the interpretation of the '48' then I have certainly retracted nothing. In this particular case my assertion was based on the position that if their primary puropose was as technical excercises (upon reflection I recall that they were originally composed for his son, perhaps someone can confirm this?) then matters of artistic interpretation were less of a concern to Bach. Though with these keyboard pieces I personally see very little necessity for argument about interpretation in any case, other than the nature of the instrument to be used (which I also mentioned in my original point).



Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

Rod
01-05-2003, 03:23 PM
Originally posted by Andrea:
Congratulations, Rod, you have surpassed me. Please take the seat next to me and I welcome you to Olympus.

If I have surpassed you then would you mind if they make my chair next to you on Olympus just that little bit larger than your own? Not that I'm being petty or anything.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
01-05-2003, 03:33 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

It was my original point too that in many cases the instrumentation was left to the performer - in those days a proportion of the 'package' was left to the disgression of the performer in a way that we do not see with compositions by Beethoven, although in the early piano music the option was there for the use of the Harpsichord and in a few other cases a wind instrument could be replaced by a stringed equivilent. These were financial concerns more than musical. I was making no point beyond this. It was just your point with op20 that threw me.

I'm sure Beethoven regarded the various arrangements of his music as just part of the music selling business. I suspect he would be less concerned with the performance of these works compared to that of the 'originals'.

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited January 05, 2003).]

Sorrano
01-06-2003, 02:27 PM
Originally posted by Gurn Blanston:
Rod,
Well, we never actually got to interpretation, whch is fine with me, and my only point was that instrumentation was apparently less relevant to the actual composers of the work (and not just Bach) than it is to us, since in many cases they didn't even specify instrument at all. I see now that I should have just said that and left it alone so as not to get into a protracted discussion, and as I am now older and no doubt wiser than I was a mere four days ago, I WILL leave it at that.
Regards, Gurn

Keep in mind that people in Bach's and Handel's day viewed themselves from a different perspective than we view ourselves today. The idea of preserving a musical composition for the future was not very relevant to them. Bach may very well have written a cantata one week and because he was in a hurry didn't bother to repeat specifications of instrumentation or vocal parts per page. He knew what they were and the performers would know based on his instructions. But he didn't care if anyone knew the week after as he would have a new cantata for them then.

Chaszz
01-09-2003, 07:18 PM
I'm listening to a station in Hamburg, that operacast.com pointed me to, that is playing some excerpts from Handel's 'Julius Caesar'. This is really beautiful!! There is an aria playing now that is piercing my heart.

I also just remembered that in 1960, when I was a starving art student in San Francisco (actually living on $9.00 a week, believe it or not), I had a small portable phonograph. I bought a 3-LP album of Handel's 'Saul' that was on sale. But I never once listened to it!! Those were my Mozart days, when I was transfigured by the 'Prague' and 'Jupiter' symphonies. But someone must have loved 'Saul' enough to release it then. If Rod thinks Handel is under-appreciated now, he was even more so then. It was not even generally known by classical music listeners that Handel had written vocal works at all (except of course for we-know-what). Ironic that I bought this and never even listened to it.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 09, 2003).]

Rod
01-10-2003, 11:51 AM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
I'm listening to a station in Hamburg, that operacast.com pointed me to, that is playing some excerpts from Handel's 'Julius Caesar'. This is really beautiful!! There is an aria playing now that is piercing my heart.

I also just remembered that in 1960, when I was a starving art student in San Francisco (actually living on $9.00 a week, believe it or not), I had a small portable phonograph. I bought a 3-LP album of Handel's 'Saul' that was on sale. But I never once listened to it!! Those were my Mozart days, when I was transfigured by the 'Prague' and 'Jupiter' symphonies. But someone must have loved 'Saul' enough to release it then. If Rod thinks Handel is under-appreciated now, he was even more so then. It was not even generally known by classical music listeners that Handel had written vocal works at all (except of course for we-know-what). Ironic that I bought this and never even listened to it.


For a long time I never took Handel seriously myself, despite Beethoven's good words on the man. This is a result of the longstanding establishment culture and its almost cult-like obsession with Bach...I bet! These days it is Handel that needs to be studied more, even now there is only one CD version of Messiah I can recommend. Chances are your old recording of Saul would not have been up to much.

I have recordings of about 15 Handel operas and all are well worth listening too, and all contain those melting arias somewhere in the plot. They usually cost a fortune on CD though, at least here in the UK.

Saul is regarded as the first of H's 'great' oratorios. I can recommend the version of this on Naxos. The others are much more expensive!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Chaszz
01-10-2003, 01:20 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
For a long time I never took Handel seriously myself, despite Beethoven's good words on the man. This is a result of the longstanding establishment culture and its almost cult-like obsession with Bach...I bet! These days it is Handel that needs to be studied more, even now there is only one CD version of Messiah I can recommend. Chances are your old recording of Saul would not have been up to much.

I have recordings of about 15 Handel operas and all are well worth listening too, and all contain those melting arias somewhere in the plot. They usually cost a fortune on CD though, at least here in the UK.

Saul is regarded as the first of H's 'great' oratorios. I can recommend the version of this on Naxos. The others are much more expensive!



As I mentioned to you once before, I suggest you try eBay if you're interested in purchasing CDs reasonably priced. I just tried 'ebay.co.uk' and got some hits on Handel operas and oratorios. You have to press 'items available to UK' at the right in order to see items from the US or elsewhere. There is a Tamerlano there now by Gardiner - don't know if you like him - reasonably, from a fellow who says he is selling off a collection. I have built a Wagner collection at half-price by using eBay. Of course you must be patient and go back regularly to see when new things arrive.



[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 10, 2003).]

Rod
01-10-2003, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by Chaszz:
As I mentioned to you once before, I suggest you try eBay if you're interested in purchasing CDs reasonably priced. I just tried 'ebay.co.uk' and got some hits on Handel operas and oratorios. You have to press 'items available to UK' at the right in order to see items from the US or elsewhere. There is a Tamerlano there now by Gardiner - don't know if you like him - reasonably, from a fellow who says he is selling off a collection. I have built a Wagner collection at half-price by using eBay. Of course you must be patient and go back regularly to see when new things arrive.

[This message has been edited by Chaszz (edited January 10, 2003).]

I have Tamerlano by Gardiner. It is the best available of this work, though G's direction is a little angular and the sound rather dry. By coincidence (and by my strict playing order) I have H's Admeto in my Walkman today. This is an old recording (and thus cheaper) reissued on Virgin and surprisingly this is very good. Forget ALL of Harnoncourts early Handel recordings.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
01-26-2003, 04:24 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
There are some incredibly high notes for the soloist and she simply has not the range - a purely technical issue. You would agree if you heard it. I'll keep an ear open for Bartoli however.



It has suddenly dawned on me that I already have a Handel recording starring Bartoli, namely the opera Rinaldo, with David Daniels. She stems from the 'big chested' school of soprano to my ears, a little too much of the 'beautiful voice'!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

spaceray
01-26-2003, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
It has suddenly dawned on me that I already have a Handel recording starring Bartoli, namely the opera Rinaldo, with David Daniels. She stems from the 'big chested' school of soprano to my ears, a little too much of the 'beautiful voice'!



Are you never satisfied?Emma Kirkby too pretty ,Cecilia Bartoli too beautiful?What exactly are you seeking in the female voice of the Handel singer .You did not rate Daniels voice on this recording ,too pretty as well?

Rod
01-27-2003, 10:17 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Are you never satisfied?Emma Kirkby too pretty ,Cecilia Bartoli too beautiful?What exactly are you seeking in the female voice of the Handel singer .You did not rate Daniels voice on this recording ,too pretty as well?

By 'beautiful voice' I was referring to 'bella voce'. What I meant really was too much voice! Both singers have a problem with excessive vibrato, but Daniels has a stronger countertenor voice than is the norm.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

spaceray
02-04-2003, 05:33 PM
Christopher Hogwoods book on Handel says that he only ever had one pupil, Princess Anne, this can't possibly be true he taught hundred of singers didn't he?

Rod
02-05-2003, 09:43 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Christopher Hogwoods book on Handel says that he only ever had one pupil, Princess Anne, this can't possibly be true he taught hundred of singers didn't he?

I'm sure Princess Anne would not have been taught singing! I think it was harpsichord lessons in this case. Handel developed a number of singers talents, that is true.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

spaceray
02-05-2003, 06:41 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I'm sure Princess Anne would not have been taught singing! I think it was harpsichord lessons in this case. Handel developed a number of singers talents, that is true.



"Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel,a German musician and composer(who had been her singing master,and was now undertaker of one of the operas)."
From Lord Hervey's "Memoirs"
This in regard to relations between the Princess Royal and her brother Prince Frederic ,The former supporting Handel and the latter supporting the Nobility Opera.
All this from "Handel" by C Hogwood

Rod
02-06-2003, 10:07 AM
Originally posted by spaceray:
"Another judicious subject of his enmity was her supporting Handel,a German musician and composer(who had been her singing master,and was now undertaker of one of the operas)."
From Lord Hervey's "Memoirs"
This in regard to relations between the Princess Royal and her brother Prince Frederic ,The former supporting Handel and the latter supporting the Nobility Opera.
All this from "Handel" by C Hogwood

Fair enough, if I'd looked at my own books I probably would have given you a better answer. What threw me is I'm sure he wrote keyboard excercises for her as well, and you saying she was his only student. I'm sure Handel coached more than just the Princess in the art of singing, but I suppose they could be construed as 'staff' rather than 'students'. I'll check my own sources tonight on the matter.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 06, 2003).]

spaceray
02-06-2003, 03:26 PM
How is it that you were originally convinced that Handel couldn't have been her singing master,was it still considered impolite for high born ladies to sing.

Why was Handel so stubborn about writing English Operas was the poetry of the day really so bad that he couldn't find a" book " that he liked well enough to set?
He did not have a great grasp of English himself,was this the deterent?

Rod
02-06-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
How is it that you were originally convinced that Handel couldn't have been her singing master,was it still considered impolite for high born ladies to sing.


This was my erroneous assumption!

Originally posted by spaceray:

Why was Handel so stubborn about writing English Operas was the poetry of the day really so bad that he couldn't find a" book " that he liked well enough to set?
He did not have a great grasp of English himself,was this the deterent?

An oft asked question. I guess that his star (foreign) singers would be much less effective singing in English. Sometimes their accents were mocked when they sung in English.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
02-07-2003, 09:50 AM
For the record I confirm Handel taught the Princess singing AND harpsichord.



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

spaceray
02-08-2003, 04:04 PM
Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?

Rod
02-09-2003, 03:28 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?

Well he managed to find English singers but they weren't the prima donna stars from the continent who could be attractions in themselves (like the '3 Tenors'!). I personally can speak of the problems of foreigners singing in English - I have a recording of the Handel oratorio 'Belshazar' where all the soloists are German apart from one Scot and when I first played it I was a little dissappointed because I thought they were singing a German language rendition because I couldn't understand a word of it. It was only by the end of the first act that I realised they were singing in (a bastardised form of) English!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 10, 2003).]

lysander
02-09-2003, 03:40 PM
Originally posted by spaceray:
Why was it so difficult for Handel to find good English singers,England and great Britain had a longstanding tradition of singing ,there were hundreds of chorus's and catch clubs?


During Handel's period, I think I am correct in saying that in Great Britian we had a Court and Choral tradition, but we did not have an Operatic tradition.
Bearing in mind that Italy was the centre of the Operatic Musical, and Handel was obliged to import his 'castrati'.
The only operatic composer we had was Purcell, about 40 years before Handel.

A surprisingly large part of some Handel Operas is not original music. Audiences of Handel's day were prepared to accept his appropriations of other composers' works.
This always has been a touchy sucjet in Handel biography. To put it bluntly, was a plagiarist, and was known as such in his own day.
I have seen some of Handel's operas and love them.. 'Julius Caesar' is my favourite,
I also love, 'Xerxes', and we shall be going to see, 'Alcina' in april at the English National Opera.

My apologies in advance incase some of my facts about Handel seem sketchy.
As always, I am willing to learn.

I am really please I found this site, I treat it like a college of learning. I ask a question, and like everyone, get feedback.
Everyone has something of great interest to contribute.

Lysander.

Rod
02-10-2003, 10:39 AM
Originally posted by lysander:


This always has been a touchy sucjet in Handel biography. To put it bluntly, was a plagiarist, and was known as such in his own day.


Most of Handel's 'borrowings' were from his own output. With regard to his borrowing of anyone elses music I always ask the accuser to listen to the 'source' and then listen to Handel's version. Nobody at that time wrote like Handel, regardless of where he got his material, which is why Beethoven rated him the greatest composer. Of course the research never delves into where the alleged sources (often very obsure composers) of the material got the idea from themselves, perhaps they were plagiarists too? Every composer borrowed thematic material, even Bach, even Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited February 10, 2003).]

Sorrano
02-10-2003, 02:15 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Most of Handel's 'borrowings' were from his own output. With regard to his borrowing of anyone elses music I always ask the accuser to listen to the 'source' and then listen to Handel's version. Nobody at that time wrote like Handel, regardless of where he got his material, which is why Beethoven rated him the greatest composer. Of course the research never delves into where the alleged sources (often very obsure composers) of the material got the idea from themselves, perhaps they were plagiarists too? Every composer borrowed thematic material, even Bach, even Beethoven.




We certainly get touchy about these things today. However, in the historical context it was not a big deal; in fact often unknown composers, in their own time, often attached someone else's name (someone famous) to their work just to get it published. If we look at this in its own context we can appreciate much better how one composer improved on someone else's ideas.