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LugwidVanB
03-25-2001, 02:20 AM
On another note, I've tried listening to Mozart, received several cd's as gifts, but I just can't get into it...no comparison whatsoever with Beethoven, in my opinion!
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I've had to grow into a lot of composers and styles. I didn't care too much for Mozart until I saw the movie 'Amadeus' and flipped over the fantastic sound track. The character of Mozart in that movie was awful but the guy who played Salerie (sp?) so turned me on the music I left the theater literally with a pleasant burning sensation in my torso. Been a Mozart fan ever since but Beethoven is just a different style altogether. They are both giants -- in my opinion as composers, number 1 and 2 and which is which depends on who I'm listening to at the moment. A long time ago I disliked opera but now a Mozart aria sung by somebody like Renee Fleming is pure beauty to me, absolutely sublime. So don't give up on any of these composers, they have a way of growing on you. Tom

LugwidVanB
03-25-2002, 12:15 AM
I'm an adult beginner in piano and really fell for B's Sonatina in G and have been practicing this difficult (for a beginner) piece for over a year. As I gained more and more intimacy with this piece, I started wondering about Beethoven's connection with it. I didn't doubt he composed it but I begin to think he must have written this piece very early, like when he was a teenager or something. It just doesn't have Beethoven's "signature", meaning for me it doesn't fit the Beethoven who composed other piano solos like Fur Elise and the Minuet in G and many others. Then, recently I read in an old back issue of Clavier magazine just one line by a teacher who said something like this: "We now know that Beethoven did not compose the Sonatina in G." That was it, nothing else! I could strangle the guy for just putting that in without explanation. Does anyone know whether Beethoven really composed this piece and if not who the scholars think did? And if he did, why does it seem so elementary for Beethoven. I'd love to know. Thanks.

Peter
03-25-2002, 09:04 AM
The authenticity of the 2 sonatinas is dubious - they probably date from 1790-2 and would therefore be quite early pieces if by Beethoven.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
03-25-2002, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
The authenticity of the 2 sonatinas is dubious - they probably date from 1790-2 and would therefore be quite early pieces if by Beethoven.



I have recordings of these sonatinas. I agree they would have to be very early Beethoven, but they do not sound unbeethovenian for this period and I would lean to the idea that they are in fact Beethoven pieces. Usually it is transparently clear whether a work is by Beethoven ot not.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Sorrano
03-25-2002, 06:02 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I have recordings of these sonatinas. I agree they would have to be very early Beethoven, but they do not sound unbeethovenian for this period and I would lean to the idea that they are in fact Beethoven pieces. Usually it is transparently clear whether a work is by Beethoven ot not.




This is one of the first B pieces I've worked with--and I agree that it is not unBeethoven. I compare it with the Op. 41 (?) Sonatas; while it is much simpler than the two sonatas the styles are not unsimilar.

LugwidVanB
03-26-2002, 03:36 PM
Thanks for the responses. I feel a little better about claiming that I am practicing a piece of music by Beethoven.

Tom Westbury

Joy
03-26-2002, 03:43 PM
I play this piece as well and agree it is not unbeethoven. It's a very nice piece to play and in my book is dated 1790.

Joy

Julie
09-26-2002, 07:14 PM
I love the sonatina in G! I can even play it now!

I have a question for you. At what speed should I be attempting to play the "Sonatina in F", the only version I have heard (on a website) is played extremely fast, and my piano teacher says it is not supposed to be played that fast,at least, she didnít learn it that way. She is looking in her books to see if she can find at what speed it is normally played, but I thought maybe someone here had an idea at what speed I should set my metronome? Any help would be much appreciated, as it would save me a lot of frustration! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/wink.gif

LugwidVanB
09-26-2002, 11:03 PM
Julie,

Congratulations on the Sonatina in G. I play it every day now as a warm up piece. Iím not familiar
with the Son in F. Where did you find it on the web. Iíd like to hear it. Tom

Julie
09-27-2002, 01:20 AM
I don't know if we are able to post links here, but if so, this is where I listened to it.
http://www.classicalarchives.com/beethovn.html

I have to warn you though, my piano teacher says it is played too fast. The Sonatina in G is nice though. And the minuet in G I was also learning but I didn't like their version as well so I stopped practicing that one! I also love to play the sonatina in G as a warm up to the current pieces that I am learning. It is a such a happy, cheerful piece!

LugwidVanB
09-28-2002, 02:31 AM
Thanks Julie. There are several Sonatinas in F and all sound pretty good. I guess the speed is a matter of preference. My teacher said the Sonatina in G should be played at dotted quarter note = 53 which is really fast. I have a good recording and it
is played about this speed which I can't do yet. But I really enjoy playing it every day and trying to improve on it. The 2nd mvt esp is lovely with a wonderful ending that I still find difficult but I'm
persisting.

One of my favorite pieces is the minuet in g but those opening right hand two finger
chords drive my crazy. How long did it take you to get those and how did you do it? tom

Julie
09-28-2002, 07:26 AM
I have no problem with the speed for the Sonatina in G, it's the speed to play the sonatina in F that is perplexing. (by the way, I LOVE the romance part of the sonatina in G too, it is my favorite)

Well, I searched the internet all morning and found a site which says that for the sonatina in F, the first 4/4 part had no tempo marking and the second movement is 3/4 allegretto. I guess that helps somewhat... I'll figure it out eventually.

Like I said, I had started the minuet in G but I didn't like the way it sounded and I gave up on it (yes I found it a little difficult to learn especially since I have only been playing for slightly over a year now). I'll try again when I feel better qualified! Right now I am learning a waltz (not Beethoven, unfortunately...hahaha)

I'm glad to meet another fellow piano student! I like learning different songs on the piano but I always come back to Beethoven, he is truly the best, IMO. I have read that the piano wasn't even his favorite instrument, yet he wrote such passionate songs for it that take your breath away! Another one I like is the Pathetique. Of course I have the simplified version but it still sounds lovely. I play that one often as well. That and the Moonlight Sonata (simplified) of course, my all time favorite.

Peter
09-28-2002, 01:51 PM
Originally posted by Julie:
I have read that the piano wasn't even his favorite instrument, yet he wrote such passionate songs for it that take your breath away!

I think that quote refers to the last years of his life when his interests turned away from the piano to the string quartet.

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'Man know thyself'

Rutradelusasa
09-30-2002, 10:31 AM
In Schindler's biography of B, if I'm not mistaken, it says there that he composed this sonatina as well the one before it in G-, and forgot all about them, until he found them and published. That's why they appear before the waldstein, but don't sound middle B at all...

Chris
09-30-2002, 11:04 AM
Originally posted by Rutradelusasa:
In Schindler's biography of B, if I'm not mistaken, it says there that he composed this sonatina as well the one before it in G-, and forgot all about them, until he found them and published. That's why they appear before the waldstein, but don't sound middle B at all...

Right, but those aren't actually the pieces we are talking about.

Julie
09-30-2002, 07:46 PM
It's interesting because on the "unheard Beethoven" website, they say the Sonatina in F was really supposed to be a sonata but only 2 parts of it were found, and it was published, and I quote, "long after Beethoven's death". I wonder which is true?

LugwidVanB
09-30-2002, 09:03 PM
I had heard that Beethoven may not have composed the Sonatina in G and was really disappointed since I had already spent a year on it as a beginner. But at another site several people said it sounded like early Beethoven and more likely than not it was him. Julie, you named two of his solos that I adore and want to play -- the Pathetique and the Moonlight. Both, however, I think are advanced pieces, esp the Pathetique which I tackled once because I wanted to play so badly but gave up in frustration. I've been on the piano about 3 years, although the first two were with a little 4-octave digital. My teacher said even the Moonlight is quite difficult. Another fantastic piece that is easier is Fur Eliese which is trully elegant and I think more to my level than any of his sonatas. Another composer I think rivals Beethoven for sheer beauty in the area of piano solos is Chopin which is really advanced stuff. What do you think of him? I just read a fascinating biography -- Chopin in Paris.

Peter
09-30-2002, 09:06 PM
Originally posted by Julie:
It's interesting because on the "unheard Beethoven" website, they say the Sonatina in F was really supposed to be a sonata but only 2 parts of it were found, and it was published, and I quote, "long after Beethoven's death". I wonder which is true?

The sonatina in F Anh 5 is of doubtful authenticity. There was also a sonata in F written 1790-2 (WoO50) consisting of 2 movements which was published posthumously.

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'Man know thyself'

Julie
09-30-2002, 10:50 PM
so Peter, you are saying there are two sonatinas in F written by Beethoven, one is a sonata and the other is of dubious sources?!

I haven't had the opportunity to listen to a lot of Chopin, what can I say, I am a Beethoven fanatic! Although I have heard Chopin's compositions are very beautiful. I am sure I will get the opportunity to learn something from him in the near future, as my piano lessons progress. On another note, I've tried listening to Mozart, received several cd's as gifts, but I just can't get into it...no comparison whatsoever with Beethoven, in my opinion! Now I don't want to argue with anyone regarding Mozart, this is stricly my personal opinion!!!

Chris
10-01-2002, 08:07 AM
Bump to account for time bug.

Joy
10-01-2002, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Julie:

I haven't had the opportunity to listen to a lot of Chopin, what can I say, I am a Beethoven fanatic! Although I have heard Chopin's compositions are very beautiful. I am sure I will get the opportunity to learn something from him in the near future, as my piano lessons progress.B]

Do give Chopin a try, he is well worth it. His Ballads and Nocturnes among others are absolutely wonderful to listen to. Regarding the Sonatina in G, I learned this piece last year and like to play it as a warm up also. The Sonatina in F in my book the notes say it was 'probably composed when B was quite young, maybe when he was a pupil of Haydn, whose work it somewhat resembles.' First published in 1830.

Julie
10-01-2002, 11:32 PM
Thanks, Joy. Any one piece in particular (by Chopin) that you can recommend for learning on the piano, that wouldn't be too difficult? I've appreciated your input before (that Beethoven book I bought and still use, although I got my hands on the complete Sonatina in G and play that version instead of the book's) :-)

Peter
10-02-2002, 02:55 AM
Originally posted by Julie:
Any one piece in particular (by Chopin) that you can recommend for learning on the piano, that wouldn't be too difficult?

Certainly not the ballades - they are very advanced. How about the A major Prelude? It is short, very straight forward and delightful!

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'Man know thyself'

Joy
10-02-2002, 05:16 AM
Originally posted by Julie:
Thanks, Joy. Any one piece in particular (by Chopin) that you can recommend for learning on the piano, that wouldn't be too difficult? I've appreciated your input before (that Beethoven book I bought and still use, although I got my hands on the complete Sonatina in G and play that version instead of the book's) :-)

Last year I learned the Prelude Opus 28 No. 4. Very nice however I do have some problems with the timing of the piece. To me it's little tricky. Also Deux Nocturnes Opus 55 is nice. I've tried my hand at that. Just the andante. For pure listening pleasure try the Etude in G Flat Opus 10 No. 5; Polonaise in A Major Opus 40 No. 1; Waltz in C Sharp Minor Opus 62 No. 2, I could go on. As a matter of fact there's a new CD out that I heard part of on the radio and I'm going to add it to my Chopin CD collection, 'Murray Perahia; Chopin Etudes, Opus 10, Opus 25'.
Great stuff and excellent playing.

Joy

Chris
10-02-2002, 12:03 PM
I think Chopin is a lot of fun to play. During my years of piano lessons, I played the "Minute" waltz and the Nocturne in Eb - two very famous pieces that everyone loves to hear. Even though they were not my favorite works, it was just a lot fun to play them. I played several other Chopin works outside of my lessons because they were so enjoyable to play. Another fun composer - Joplin. There's nothing like playing a little Entertainer or Maple Leaf Rag when you just have minute to mess around on the piano.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited October 02, 2002).]

Julie
10-02-2002, 07:42 PM
oh my gosh, guys, thanks so much for all the input! I can't wait to go to the music store with my list now! Is my piano teacher going to be surprised when I pull one of these out for my next piece to learn!!!

:-)

Sorrano
10-02-2002, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
I think Chopin is a lot of fun to play. During my years of piano lessons, I played the "Minute" waltz and the Nocturne in Eb - two very famous pieces that everyone loves to hear. Even though they were not my favorite works, it was just a lot fun to play them. I played several other Chopin works outside of my lessons because they were so enjoyable to play. Another fun composer - Joplin. There's nothing like playing a little Entertainer or Maple Leaf Rag when you just have minute to mess around on the piano.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited October 02, 2002).]


I must confess that I've never been much of a Chopin fan until I tried the Mazurkas at the piano. They are simply fun, as you mention.

Joy
10-03-2002, 02:33 AM
Originally posted by Chris:
I think Chopin is a lot of fun to play. During my years of piano lessons, I played the "Minute" waltz and the Nocturne in Eb - two very famous pieces that everyone loves to hear. Even though they were not my favorite works, it was just a lot fun to play them. I played several other Chopin works outside of my lessons because they were so enjoyable to play. Another fun composer - Joplin. There's nothing like playing a little Entertainer or Maple Leaf Rag when you just have minute to mess around on the piano.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited October 02, 2002).]

Do you play the Minute Waltz in a minute? My rendition on my CD takes 1 minute 49 sec. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
Also I too like to play The Entertainer. Such a fun piece to ramble off on the piano. Good exercise for the fingers too!

Chris
10-03-2002, 05:59 AM
Originally posted by Joy:
Do you play the Minute Waltz in a minute?

No I definitely don't play it in a minute. But I tell all the ladies, "For you my darling, I play the 'Minute Waltz' in thirty seconds." http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/cool.gif

Also I too like to play The Entertainer. Such a fun piece to ramble off on the piano. Good exercise for the fingers too!

I'm not sure how good an exercise it is for the fingers, but you sure get some practice with left hand jumps. In fact, that's the common thread in all those pieces I mentioned. Guess you can tell what kind of pieces I consider "fun" http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited October 03, 2002).]

Joy
10-03-2002, 09:34 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
I'm not sure how good an exercise it is for the fingers, but you sure get some practice with left hand jumps. In fact, that's the common thread in all those pieces I mentioned. Guess you can tell what kind of pieces I consider "fun" http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited October 03, 2002).]

If you play the Minute Waltz in 30 sec. for your lady friends you should play it twice! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif
I know what you mean with the left hand jumps for The Entertainer, lots of them! It's very fun to play. Sometimes if I'm tired of practicing the slower stuff I play The Entertainer, that wakes me up! I do like The Maple Leaf Rag also but I don't play it, like to listen to it though!

Joy

Chris
10-03-2002, 10:11 PM
I think Maple Leaf is even more fun to play than the Entertainer, because it's in Ab, and so you have all these left hand chords with two or three black keys. That's good, because you're less likely to make a mistake that way (or so it seems to me). So you can just play the song and not kick yourself for every little mistake you make http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Joy
10-03-2002, 11:36 PM
If I kicked myself for every mistake I made I would have a pretty sore foot! (and something else probably). Sometimes I go to fast with the left hand in The Entertainer I think and then that's where the mistakes happen. Also the right hand especially before the 'repeat 8va'. Now you've given me a taste to play it, I'll have to bring it out tonight. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/smile.gif

Joy

Andrea
10-04-2002, 01:09 AM
I am so glad to see that there are some of you out there in Forumland who appreciate Scott Joplin. I love his ragtime music, my favorite being the Maple Leaf Rag. I also love the piano version of Solace.

Scott Joplin's music was very popular when he was alive but it too was a bit forgotten after his death. If it wasn't for Marvin Hamlisch using it in the film "The Sting", who knows if anyone today would have ever heard of him. Just another example of Hollywood bringing a "decomposing" composer's music back to life. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Chris
10-04-2002, 02:49 AM
I have this friend who's absolutely nuts about Joplin. He doesn't play the piano. He knows how to read music, but you put some beginner's lesson book in front of him, and he can't get through the easiest thing. He doesn't remember where the notes on the staff map to on the keys fast enough. You could say he's a poor sight reader, but it's so much worse than that. This is not surprising, as he's never had any lessons. The thing is, though, he loves Joplin's music so much that he learns the pieces anyway, by figuring out from the sheet music where to play and then doing it over and over again until he has it memorized. He does this a few bars at a time. It takes forever for him to learn a piece, but he does it. He can play tons of Joplin piano pieces now, and he's really good, artistically. He rarely makes a mistake either, which is surprising considering his fingerings are horrendous. That man could be a great pianist if he worked on the technical end of it a little.

Joy
10-04-2002, 11:34 PM
That is amazing, Chris. Good for your friend! It sounds like it's a lot of work for him but if he enjoys it then that's what counts!

[This message has been edited by Joy (edited October 04, 2002).]

John Rasmussen
10-12-2002, 03:08 AM
Originally posted by Joy:
Do you play the Minute Waltz in a minute?

I have read that the title is actually not the English word Minute but the French word of the same spelling, which means "little." I'd like to see anyone waltz to a performance of this piece which takes only 60 seconds! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/wink.gif

Joy
10-12-2002, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by John Rasmussen:
I have read that the title is actually not the English word Minute but the French word of the same spelling, which means "little." I'd like to see anyone waltz to a performance of this piece which takes only 60 seconds! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/wink.gif

You're right. People would be waltzing around like whirlygigs! I'm sure a lot of people don't realize the meaning is little and not 'minute'.

Joy

Chris
10-13-2002, 12:18 AM
Yes, we have actually brought that up here before, and it sounds reasonable to me. Also, somebody here said he had a recording (or heard a recording) of somebody playing it in one minute. It sounds pretty much impossible to me, unless you just speed up the tape or something, though.

Sorrano
10-14-2002, 08:34 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Yes, we have actually brought that up here before, and it sounds reasonable to me. Also, somebody here said he had a recording (or heard a recording) of somebody playing it in one minute. It sounds pretty much impossible to me, unless you just speed up the tape or something, though.

You could do that with MIDI instruments and a sequencing program.