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Jin
05-12-2001, 12:01 PM
I've lurked in the shadows for the good part of a year now. I've gained valuable insight through this forum, but my pool of knowledge has been too shallow to float any meaningful contribution. My belief is that, generally, there is more to be gained through listening than speaking for the sake of speaking, but the recent posts about "daft programming," having revived (albeit briefly) a topic which has been discussed before, piqued my curiosity.

Exceptions are noted, but why, on a personal basis, do most of you prefer classical to pop? This seems like an awful, almost irreverent question, but please, humor me. Classical is structurally more complex, but on an emotional level, modern music has the same potential, no? Previous comments on the purity of instrumental music interested me and in this regard, I do favor cm over pop. One entirely valid criticism of modern music is the uninspired lyrics in many recordings.

Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness. Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European.

I have friends who speak of cm as "noise" or incomprehensible and others who refuse to acknowledge metal or grunge as music. I enjoy and "relate to" (for lack of a better term) world, modern and classical, so while I respect their private views, I wish I personally knew someone who appreciates Music, with a captial 'm.' There's joy in listening to works which have transcended time, but there is also something to be said for living in the times and watching (or rather, listening to) history as it develops. What disturbs me is that some people play and turn on cm without actually hearing it. These people seem to like cm as background music, an accompaniment to other tasks at hand. I realize that for the majority, it is simply a matter of genuine preference (as is with those who are intensely involved), an argument could be made for the psychological comfort of a fixation on the past, of choosing music that is widely-accepted and already renowned.

I disagree with the all-encompassing condemnation of compilations. While they are unsatisfying and even irritating to those who have been immersed in cm, they can be helpful for "beginners" who are yet unfamiliar with the "terrain." They can serve as springboards--listening to selections may help inexperienced audiences identify which styles and composers they enjoy most. However unimpressive, they're a start.

Tentative observation: there seems to be a trend toward simplification in music as well as art (ie classicist realism and detail to Rothko and Mondrian--although, yes, postmodern art is more eclectic than anything else). Psycho-social-political explanations?

I'll cease my ranting now...

"When I get a little money, I buy books and if any is left I buy food and clothes."
--Erasmus

Peter
05-12-2001, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:
I've lurked in the shadows for the good part of a year now. I've gained valuable insight through this forum, but my pool of knowledge has been too shallow to float any meaningful contribution.

Glad you've finally come out of the closet!


Exceptions are noted, but why, on a personal basis, do most of you prefer classical to pop? This seems like an awful, almost irreverent question, but please, humor me. Classical is structurally more complex, but on an emotional level, modern music has the same potential, no?

What produces emotion in music? - it is harmony, dynamics, melody, rhythm. Now you can take any one of those and you will find much greater complexity, originality, variety, and depth in one phrase of a great composer (and for us here, that means Beethoven more than any other) than you could in a whole pop song. If you take Opera, the whole range of human emotions is explored - sometimes many different emotions are present at the same moment. The emotions in pop are pretty basic - happy or sad - cm goes much further than this in delving into the human state. Nothing in pop can match the power or expression of a symphony orchestra - the range of sounds is infinite. You never tire of listening to a great piece of music, as the more you listen the more you discover.


Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness.

I don't regard Classical music as one type of music - there are huge differences between composers.

Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European.

I agree - the more we listen to a societies music, the more we learn of their culture, which in today's global village is important. I'm afraid my knowledge of middle eastern music is rather limited!

I have friends who speak of cm as "noise" or incomprehensible and others who refuse to acknowledge metal or grunge as music. I enjoy and "relate to" (for lack of a better term) world, modern and classical, so while I respect their private views, I wish I personally knew someone who appreciates Music, with a captial 'm.'

Whilst I do appreciate some pop music, I would never put it on the same level as CM for the reasons I gave at the beginning - also I know the amount of hard work, and the supreme talent that is needed to perform classical music properly - years of training and study are recquired to become a fine musician. With pop, all that is needed is a pretty face and a synthesiser.

There's joy in listening to works which have transcended time, but there is also something to be said for living in the times and watching (or rather, listening to) history as it develops.

That doesn't mean just pop! - so-called serious music is still being wtitten. Truly great music is timeless. I personally doubt that much of today's pop or 'serious' music will be around in two hundred years time.

I disagree with the all-encompassing condemnation of compilations. While they are unsatisfying and even irritating to those who have been immersed in cm, they can be helpful for "beginners" who are yet unfamiliar with the "terrain."

I agree


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-12-2001).]

Rod
05-12-2001, 07:20 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Nothing in pop can match the power or expression of a symphony orchestra - the range of sounds is infinite. You never tire of listening to a great piece of music, as the more you listen the more you discover.



I would say the multiple cannon salute with an accompanying descending scale on the guitars that ends AC/DC's concert finale 'For Those About to Rock We Salute You' is pure classical music, in the tradition of Wellington's Victory and the 1812 Overture. I would say AC/DC's use of cannons is considerably superior in effect musically to Tchaikovsky's, and considerably more powerfull, though if they adopted Beethoven's seemingly endless cannon and musket onslaught, now that would be SOME rock'n'roll finale!

In addition I would say many of Kate Bush's songs for solo voice and piano are musically superior to many an overwraught Romantic lied!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 05-12-2001).]

PDG
05-13-2001, 12:18 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
With pop, all that is needed is a pretty face and a synthesiser.


You'd call Rick Wakeman pretty?? http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif Must be the beard.

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PDG (Peter)

Peter
05-13-2001, 02:58 AM
Originally posted by PDG:
You'd call Rick Wakeman pretty?? http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif Must be the beard.



You know what I mean!!!

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'Man know thyself'

Jin
05-13-2001, 01:09 PM
What do you think of the notion that pure beauty is apart from emotion? That a truly engaging piece induces the listener to wander amongst the phrase in a meditative state. Or is beauty, by definition related to emotion? I wouldn't say that more complex emotion is more...how should I put this...admirable. Pop and various world music involve strong beats which evoke, if not complex emotion, emotion of comparable intensity. Less may be more. Less complexity, but not missing musicality.

Lack of instrumental (wordless) sections is a major loss in pop; no longer are you allowed to paint your own mental pictures, the artist paints for you and sometimes that's not at all impressive. Mainstream music in the mid twentieth century wasn't yet completely lyric oriented, but is it just me, or are people's attention spans decreasing? People have told me that they don't listen to music in other languages since they can't "understand" them. Lengths of works have shortened significantly and speed is key. Everything nowadays is so compressed and compact; we seem to be accelerating toward a scintillating burnout, a grand burst of activity or some such.

The sheer bulk is overwhelming, what with numerous labels signing dozens of performers in search of a gem. There's a profusion of one-hit wonders, few of which even survive for a month. Could it have anything to do with the change in musical audience (possibly masses v. elite?)? Composers used to have patrons, but with modern radio, file trading, and consumerism, proliferation is so much easier. Speaking of proliferation, for the longest time, I couldn't stand the opening bars of the Fifth, it'd been so overplayed in films and ads. Hmmm, I might have even resented "them" for not allowing me to form a genuine first impression.

Tangent: Cage's "4'33"--music, art or both? Since there's no sound, or only ambient sound.

~Leslie
05-13-2001, 01:30 PM
Jin, My interest in classical stems from a desire to understand the history, roots and development of music straight across the board. There is some pop music that is quite good, conversely, some that is very bad.
Yes, some of today's music has been watered down, intent on dumbing down the message, the more accessible, the more it sells. Did you know grunge music came about because ppl were sick and tired of paying top dollar to see and hear better musicianship?
Considering the amount of time it takes to develop the chops to play complex music, is it any wonder, in our age of technology, electronics, hungry corporate recording industry moguls, incessant distractions, the desire for instant gratification, that we don't hear more extraordinary talent over the airwaves? Classical art represents that of a slower paced era... a time when ppl traveled by horse-drawn carriages, their only source of sonic pleasure was live music, operas and plays instead of today's motion picture films....and it also epitomizes the finest musical tradition of
Europe, built on a solid foundation over the course of centuries.

I've traveled around various music rooms on the net, and have found that for the most part, the regulars that congregate within think that THEIR music is the only kind worth listening to and discussing, and just about everything else, falls fairly short of the mark.

As far as I'm concerned, I try not to get too enmeshed in all that, my ears are open and well trained, and i can certainly discern the substantial from the trivial in any given genre.~

Peter
05-13-2001, 02:59 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Considering the amount of time it takes to develop the chops to play complex music, is it any wonder, in our age of technology, electronics, hungry corporate recording industry moguls, incessant distractions, the desire for instant gratification, that we don't hear more extraordinary talent over the airwaves?

The desire for new music was just as great in B's day - the Viennese were an insatiable lot and also flippant - here today gone tommorow. This was B's main complaint about the Viennese, and the reason for his desire to leave on many occasions. I think the notion of pop music as a 20th century phenomena is wrong - there has always been 'popular' music, dating back at least to the greeks. If you look at the music over the ages that was produced for purely commercial reasons, most of it is consigned to oblivion - the best has survived such as Rossini and Johann Strauss, but no one today could seriously make a case for Rossini being Beethoven's equal as a composer.
In making my points about CM and pop, I don't seek to denegrate pop in any way - it is important and always has been in our culture, everyone has the right to listen to what they like .

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Peter
05-13-2001, 03:16 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:
What do you think of the notion that pure beauty is apart from emotion? That a truly engaging piece induces the listener to wander amongst the phrase in a meditative state. Or is beauty, by definition related to emotion? I wouldn't say that more complex emotion is more...how should I put this...admirable. Pop and various world music involve strong beats which evoke, if not complex emotion, emotion of comparable intensity. Less may be more. Less complexity, but not missing musicality.

I wouldn't say that emotion is beauty; rage is an emotion, but it certainly isn't beautiful. It is the other way round - beauty evokes certain emotions within us. My point about the emotions in great CM (because there is bad CM as well!!) is thay they are on a different level to those evoked by pop. The incessant beat of pop goes straight to the most primitive part of the brain - that which controls sexual desire. The trance like state enduced by many tribes through dancing to a repetetive beat culminates in sex. It can be scientifically proven that CM stimulates different areas of the brain - this is the reason behind the theory of playing CM to babies!

Tangent: Cage's "4'33"--music, art or both? Since there's no sound, or only ambient sound.

A con!!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

PDG
05-13-2001, 03:46 PM
If Cage's 4'33" ran for 15 hours, it would still be preferable to Wagner's Ring Cycle! On an equally serious note, I find the tempo of 4'33" rather hurried - modern interpretations tend to get through it in around 4'22"; at this pace, many of the nuances are lost on the listener. If anything, a more leisurely speed - say 4'51" - gives both listener & performer alike the chance to fully absorb the twists & turns of this charming piece; especially in the middle section - my favourite bit.

And here I must wholeheartedly agree with Rod - this work is a knockout on an authentic piano; my Steinway recordings went straight in the bin.

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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 05-13-2001).]

Rod
05-13-2001, 10:00 PM
Originally posted by PDG:

And here I must wholeheartedly agree with Rod - this work is a knockout on an authentic piano; my Steinway recordings went straight in the bin.



Wouldn't a Steinway be contemporary, and thus authentic, with this magnificent piece?!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
05-13-2001, 10:14 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Wouldn't a Steinway be contemporary, and thus authentic, with this magnificent piece?!



Absolutely - playing this on a fortepiano would be ludicrous!!!! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/biggrin.gif

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'Man know thyself'

Chris
05-14-2001, 09:44 AM
Good to see you posting, Jin. I hope you continue to contribute.

aqua
05-21-2001, 09:28 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Jin:

"Interest in a wide variety of music is, in my opinion, less a dilution of focus than a healthy openness and flexibility. Favoring one brand of music is bordering oppressiveness. Study of (or exposure to) world music and exploration beyond the boundaries of the western tradition would endow a deeper understanding of music in relation to society. I'd like to solicit opinions on middle eastern music in comparison to European."

Agree with you generally. Non European music can sometimes be very good. Try listening to
Japanese wooden flute and/or instrumental
classical music. Some Japanese music is really excellent stuff - Although I can't stand Japanese VOCAL claasical music.

Also happen to like Iranian classical music.
It is very stark, but really pretty good.

The only music I don't like is Arabic and Chinese music- Just can't stand the stuff.

I've lived & worked in several countries in the world, including the Middle East. I took a liking to Iranian music straight away- but Arab music UGH !!. To me it appears repetitous.

Also happen to like traditional jazz - especially the blues. So, as you can read.
I'm not biased towards Western classical music.
One thing I'd like to add: no other music has ever moved me nearly as much as
Beethoven's. Nothing else touches one's soul
in the manner of some of the slow movements
of Beethovens third period music (the slow
movements of: the A minor quartet, the Benedictus of the Missa Solemnis, the second movement of piano sonata no. 32 and of course - the slow movement of the ninth symphony) Beethoven is unique. No other
music or musician has Beethovenesque qualities.

Believe me- I've heard the EROICA- with the
aid of an electricity generator- in remote villages, in different parts of the world. Often villagers, who had NEVER heard Western music before (let alone Westrn CLASSICAL music) have sat down beside me spellbound- while those massive chords of the of the Eroica's first movement were hammered (should I say "thundered") out. Villagers have often asked me what this music was and
have requested that I should repeat it for them a second and a third time. This has never happened with any other music.

euphony131
05-23-2001, 05:54 AM
Hi all,

For the final say on all this Pop vs. Classical debate, I submit the following link where a "Paul" cogently extolls the merits of Classical as out-weighing Pop. After all - a "burrito" is still a burrito no matter how you slice it and a gourmet meal in Paris is, well, a gourmet meal in Paris.
http://www.salon.com/june97/entertainment/classical8970627.html

Follow the link to his next letter where he challenges his rival's assertion that Classical music is sex-less. His analogy of the "8-foot dominitrix"(Classical) in front a "troop of feckless boy scouts"(Pop) is hilarious!

And don't get me wrong -- I enjoy a burrito myself once in awhile, but the stuff can get old very fast especially when you hear it blaring out at you everywhere you go: malls, bookstores, work-place, theatres, coffee-shops, car stereos, neighbors...JESUS! Take a break ah-ready!

And it should be no surprise who really is the more open-minded of the two groups -- Classical-lovers or Pop-lovers. The vast majority of Classical-lovers also listen to other forms of music including some Pop, whereas the vast majority of Pop-lovers don't give a rat's behind about Classical or anything close to it. So whose more narrow-minded? The Britney Spears/Limp Bisket fan who gives the middle-finger to all things Beethoven or the Beethoven fan who occasionally dabbles in Pop? End of discussion.



[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 05-22-2001).]

Rod
05-23-2001, 10:59 PM
Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

For the final say on all this Pop vs. Classical debate, I submit the following link where a "Paul" cogently extolls the merits of Classical as out-weighing Pop. After all - a "burrito" is still a burrito no matter how you slice it and a gourmet meal in Paris is, well, a gourmet meal in Paris.

Follow the link to his next letter where he challenges his rival's assertion that Classical music is sex-less. His analogy of the "8-foot dominitrix"(Classical) in front a "troop of feckless boy scouts"(Pop) is hilarious!

And don't get me wrong -- I enjoy a burrito myself once in awhile, but the stuff can get old very fast especially when you hear it blaring out at you everywhere you go: malls, bookstores, work-place, theatres, coffee-shops, car stereos, neighbors...JESUS! Take a break ah-ready!

And it should be no surprise who really is the more open-minded of the two groups -- Classical-lovers or Pop-lovers. The vast majority of Classical-lovers also listen to other forms of music including some Pop, whereas the vast majority of Pop-lovers don't give a rat's behind about Classical or anything close to it. So whose more narrow-minded? The Britney Spears/Limp Bisket fan who gives the middle-finger to all things Beethoven or the Beethoven fan who occasionally dabbles in Pop? End of discussion.



Not quite the end, but I generally agree with your position, though those you say do not typically give a rats behind certainly do if you inform them that you're into classical, a whole range of negative preconceptions reveal themselves. But some of this is the fault of the CM establishment and CM fans, whilst the rest is an anti-intellectual reaction induced by peer-group influences. It seems to be natural human instinct to support ones own 'team' at the expence the opposition, more so within music genres - recall the Handel v's Bach debate here. I remember back in 1984 there was massive interest in the 'clash of the titans' Van Halen v's AC/DC at the Donnington Rock Festival, when that type of music was at the peak of its popularity. AC/DC won of course. I think it is more healthy to play such games within the genre, as did Beethoven himself. Comparing utterly different worlds serves no useful purpose other than make you look paraniod. If pop music is crap, it is because it is crap pop music. The same goes for classical.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-27-2001).]

Claudie MICAULT
05-25-2001, 02:09 AM
Yes, it is absolutly true : there is beautiful and bad, both in Pop or Classical.
Why cm is a question of personnality (like to prefer rice or spaghettis...). Maybe we do like also difficulties. To pay my singing lessons in Italy I sang every evening pop one year, with all the feelings I could give. But I chosed what I liked... so what was at this time for me "good pop music". If I had made a career as pop singer it would have been easier....
But to live with B., Haendel.... makes me happier even if the study is harder !

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Claudie

PDG
05-25-2001, 03:19 AM
Hi Claudie. What kind of pop did you sing? Claudie et Les Beatles: Sont es mon qui vent tres bien ensemble?!?........(I'm such a smoothie).......... http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/cool.gif

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PDG (Peter)

Jin
05-25-2001, 08:41 AM
Aqua wrote: "The only music I don't like is Arabic and Chinese music- Just can't stand the stuff."

Iím no expert, but perhaps you dislike Chinese and Arabic music since theyíre based on chromatic or pentatonic tones. Then again, I think Iranian and Japanese music may also be so centered. Has anyone heard Korean music? It sounds (the pieces I heard were part of an annual festival) extremely dissonant and screechy to my ears. At least Chinese and Arabic music have some detectable form of continuity. Accustomed to western music, the eastern scales take a bit of acclimation, but if one is used to it or grew up in the east, eastern music is equally soulful and mellifluous. And as for the villagers, I suspect their awe stems as much, if not more, from the fact that music is flowing out of a generator as the music itself. Amazed since theyíre used to hearing music performed by people, not music ex machina, if you will. Weíre all drawn to new gadgets and innovations.

Euphony131 wrote: "After all - a "burrito" is still a burrito no matter how you slice it and a gourmet meal in Paris is, well, a gourmet meal in Paris."

Let me draw an analogy: my parents heap seafood onto their plates whenever we eat at a buffet presumably because seafood is more expensive and theyíre "getting more for their money." I, however, like chicken. Invariably, I end up munching on chicken as theyíre cracking their crab and lobster. They always reprimand me for choosing the commonplace and I always rebut that I donít like seafood, so regardless of higher cost, itís not worth my money to eat seafood. The point is, if you like the burrito more than the gourmet meal, no matter what the experts write or the rest of the world says, you wouldnít take the gourmet meal even if it was free.

"but the stuff can get old very fast especially when you hear it blaring out at you everywhere you go: malls, bookstores, work-place, theatres, coffee-shops, car stereos, neighbors...JESUS! Take a break ah-ready!"

Would hearing classical played everywhere all the time become irritating, too? And a while back, didnít someone post a article arguing, via support for "Yes We Have No Bananas," that pop can be just as valid and worthwhile as classical?

Rod wrote: "if you inform them that you're into classical, a whole range of negative preconceptions reveal themselves."

Seems that the people who show scorn for classical do so not because they dislike it but because they donít want to appear uncultured. Classical has a reputation as "refined" musicóthey donít relate to it for whatever reason, and fearing that they may not have the "intellect" to appreciate it, they avow dislike. In essence: "itís not that I canít understand it, I just donít choose to since I dislike it." The problem seems to be acceptance not of cm but of their own tastes.

Peter
05-25-2001, 01:25 PM
Originally posted by Jin:
Seems that the people who show scorn for classical do so not because they dislike it but because they donít want to appear uncultured. Classical has a reputation as "refined" musicóthey donít relate to it for whatever reason, and fearing that they may not have the "intellect" to appreciate it, they avow dislike. In essence: "itís not that I canít understand it, I just donít choose to since I dislike it." The problem seems to be acceptance not of cm but of their own tastes.

I think there are several reasons they actively dislike cm - the main one being image. Pop is all about image - I guarantee that if rock stars performed sitting down in suits and were balding middle aged men, (or worse still, middle aged women!) pop music would die the death! Classical music also suffers from limited exposure - for example, the last time I remember a Beethoven concerto on tv here in the UK was at 5.00am about 2 years ago!
Classical concerts on tv are a rarity and when they do occur, they are usually either modern works or a 4 hour Opera!

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-25-2001).]

PDG
05-25-2001, 03:20 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I think there are several reasons they actively dislike cm - the main one being image. Pop is all about image - I guarantee that if rock stars performed sitting down in suits and were balding middle aged men, (or worse still, middle aged women!) pop music would die the death!


Balding, middle-aged women would be all the rage, though.

Peter
05-25-2001, 03:50 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
Balding, middle-aged women would be all the rage, though.

For 5 minutes!

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'Man know thyself'

PDG
05-25-2001, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
For 5 minutes!


So you think it would be a case of hair today, gone tomorrow? I agree - give them all wigs; after all, Haydn wore one. Made by Tommy Hilfiger, I believe.

Serge
05-26-2001, 06:11 AM
Ah, s'il y'a une langue qui inspire les emotions du coeur, c'est le francais! La plus belle langue du monde! Claude's msg's make me wanna speak all cultured-like, y'know? BTW, did that make any sense to les francophones? J'espere! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Anyway, I strongly believe that, yes, c.m. suffers from a very poor image. There is no reason I can think of why classical music can't be sexed up like pop. We're not talking slutty, simply arousing and sexual... Has anyone seen the new album "born" by Bond? They are a female string quartet who play "pop-ified" ersatz classical music. Their cd booklet features Vanity Fair stylized photo spreads and close-ups of these four attractive women. Album's doing quite well on the charts, so far as I know...

While it is a very large stretch to call "born" a classical album, you all get what I'm getting at.

PDG
05-26-2001, 07:04 AM
Well, now much though I'd love to share a bath tub with the babes of Bond.....

http://www.afternight.com/smiles/ladys-man.gif

I fear they may be too hirsuit, Serge, too hirsuit for classical acceptability.

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PDG (Peter)

MCS
05-26-2001, 09:32 AM
Impressive graphics, PDG!!!
(However, we can't say the same about your French..)
C'est dommage!

Mary

PDG
05-26-2001, 04:29 PM
Originally posted by MCS:
Impressive graphics, PDG!!!
(However, we can't say the same about your French..)
C'est dommage!
Mary

Mary, Mary, quite contrary! I think vous are getting moi mixed up with Serge. My French is bon. Now, no more slander or it's Madame Guillotine for vous!!

http://www.afternight.com/smiles/behead.gif

Claudie MICAULT
05-26-2001, 11:32 PM
Well... your french is better than my poor english anyway !!!... I do not find that french is the most beautiful language : it is richer than some others (???)... but for me italian sound like good music (mi piaciono molto gli spagetti... e il vino buono !!!)
Yes, francophones love B. too : his music is universal, it speaks direct to the heart of the listener. And there are people with heart in all the world. Even in the land of Madame Guillotine...


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Claudie

Serge
05-27-2001, 04:32 AM
Well, I'm half French, so I'm biased.

MCS
05-27-2001, 10:58 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
[B] Mary, Mary, quite contrary! I think vous are getting moi mixed up with Serge. My French is bon. Now, no more slander or it's Madame Guillotine for vous!!

Yikes!! Let's not go losing our heads there, PDG! We're all friends here...You know, fraternite, egalite and all that!! Certainement, votre French is tres bon! Now put that weapon away before someone gets hurt!
(BTW, is hirsuit an article of women's clothing?)

Mary(who is not really very contrary at all, but quite easy to get along with)

PDG
05-27-2001, 04:56 PM
How does your garden grow?.....Hirsuit!? Ah, oui, c'est tres bon!! Women are always telling me to put away my weapon. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/frown.gif


PDG (Peter - dead easy to get along with).