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Serge
05-11-2001, 06:42 PM
Looking back on a Rasumovsky-quartet thread, I remembered that there was a point where you people discussed some of the more thrilling climaxes or finales in the Ludwig oeuvre. So, I would like to ask here what you all consider as perhaps your top five or so thrilling finales in any genre. Not only can we get a bearing of what we consider fast and loud, but we may even be reminded of works that need to be revisited!

Here're mine, so far:

presto of the 9th, 4th mov't
finale of the Choral Fantasy
finale of the Egmont overture
last mov't of the Apassionata
last mov't of the Pathetique

There are others I'm forgetting, but I'm forgetting them. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Rod
05-11-2001, 08:27 PM
How about the Leonore II/III overtures?


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
05-11-2001, 11:14 PM
I can't agree about Leonore, no.2: the climax sounds little more climactic than the intro to me! For great climaxes, I always think of contrasts among the moods of a piece; thus, I love the brilliant, runaway tribute to Haydn at the end of the Serioso Quartet, compared to all the minor-mode drama which preceeds it.

A Top 5? Gosh! Off the top of my head.......

Sonatas opp.57 & 110;
Symphony no.9;
Quartets opp.59/3 & 132;
Archduke Trio, op.97;
Violin Concerto (just for the final BOOM! BOOM!).

Oops, that's 7.........sorry, don't know what to leave out.

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PDG (Peter)

Rod
05-11-2001, 11:48 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
I can't agree about Leonore, no.2: the climax sounds little more climactic than the intro to me!


Don't know what you mean PDG. The intro is little more than two calls to attention in no2. The closing 2 minutes are considerably more 'climactic' in my opinion.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
05-12-2001, 12:40 AM
Originally posted by Serge:
Looking back on a Rasumovsky-quartet thread, I remembered that there was a point where you people discussed some of the more thrilling climaxes or finales in the Ludwig oeuvre.

I stick by my original choice of Razumovsky no.3 finale, finale symphony 7, finale symphony 5, piano concerto 4 finale (coda), finale string quartet Op.18 no.1(coda).

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-11-2001).]

Joy
05-12-2001, 05:07 AM
Originally posted by Serge:
Looking back on a Rasumovsky-quartet thread, I remembered that there was a point where you people discussed some of the more thrilling climaxes or finales in the Ludwig oeuvre. So, I would like to ask here what you all consider as perhaps your top five or so thrilling finales in any genre. Not only can we get a bearing of what we consider fast and loud, but we may even be reminded of works that need to be revisited!

Here're mine, so far:

presto of the 9th, 4th mov't
finale of the Choral Fantasy
finale of the Egmont overture
last mov't of the Apassionata
last mov't of the Pathetique

There are others I'm forgetting, but I'm forgetting them. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Good question. Well, I have to agree with the 4th mov't of the 9th. That last minute and a half always gets my heart racing. Also, the last mov't of the Apassionata and Pathetique.
Also, the last mov't of the Moonlight Sonata I would have to add. The finale of Sym. 7 and 5 and how about the finale of Sym. 8? A pounding (and I do mean pounding) ending. I think I've gone over my alotted 5, sorry. So easy to do.
Joy

PDG
05-12-2001, 07:10 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
Don't know what you mean PDG. The intro is little more than two calls to attention in no2. The closing 2 minutes are considerably more 'climactic' in my opinion.


Yes, I should have been more specific. I don't consider this overture to be great Beethoven music, & IMHO, the last couple of minutes are relatively tame, esp. in view of what the music is trying to convey; namely, the arrival of the king's representative. The opening call to attention promises more than ends up being delivered!

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PDG (Peter)

PDG
05-12-2001, 07:36 AM
Originally posted by Joy:
Good question. Well, I have to agree with the 4th mov't of the 9th. That last minute and a half always gets my heart racing. Also, the last mov't of the Apassionata and Pathetique.
Also, the last mov't of the Moonlight Sonata I would have to add. The finale of Sym. 7 and 5 and how about the finale of Sym. 8? A pounding (and I do mean pounding) ending. I think I've gone over my alotted 5, sorry. So easy to do.
Joy

Joy,

We both seem to have trouble counting to 5! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif And yes, Symphony no.5, OF COURSE!.....(slaps forehead)......

I just played the renegade (sorry, Peter!) 8th Symphony again. What a finale! Only Beethoven could mischievously extricate himself from F sharp minor, & then stride, majestically, through the last few bars in F major.

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PDG (Peter)

Peter
05-12-2001, 02:21 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
I just played the renegade (sorry, Peter!) 8th Symphony again. What a finale! Only Beethoven could mischievously extricate himself from F sharp minor, & then stride, majestically, through the last few bars in F major.



I just wouldn't describe the 8th as renegade! - that last movement which you yourself rave about is bordering on late Beethoven in its originality - the form is unprecedented with two developments and two recapitulations - a combination of sonata form and rondo. To me this work is greater even than the 7th, because of its subtlety and wit - Beethoven agreed with me!

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
05-12-2001, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
Yes, I should have been more specific. I don't consider this overture to be great Beethoven music, & IMHO, the last couple of minutes are relatively tame, esp. in view of what the music is trying to convey; namely, the arrival of the king's representative. The opening call to attention promises more than ends up being delivered!



I suggect you must be refering to some other composition, or you must have one hell of a lame recording in your collection, which is quite possible with regard to Beethoven.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
05-12-2001, 07:33 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I just wouldn't describe the 8th as renegade! - that last movement which you yourself rave about is bordering on late Beethoven in its originality - the form is unprecedented with two developments and two recapitulations - a combination of sonata form and rondo. To me this work is greater even than the 7th, because of its subtlety and wit - Beethoven agreed with me!



I would say the finale of the 8th has a vaguely Hungarian feel to it, a style which B had some occasional interest in. A frenzied Hungarian dance. Certainly not to my ears the quasi-baroque style of the late period however.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
05-13-2001, 12:46 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
I suggect you must be refering to some other composition, or you must have one hell of a lame recording in your collection, which is quite possible with regard to Beethoven.


No, not the wrong composition. I feel that both Leonora 2 & 3 are too long for the purpose for which they were written, & for the thematic material used. Each of these runs for about 14 minutes in my collection (sounds about right to me). The snappier, shorter overtures: Fidelio, Egmont & Coriolanus are perhaps his most successful efforts. I also like the tuneful King Stephen.

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PDG (Peter)

Peter
05-13-2001, 02:56 AM
Originally posted by PDG:
Fidelio, Egmont & Coriolanus are perhaps his most successful efforts. I also like the tuneful King Stephen.



I prefer Leonora 3 to the Fidelio overture.

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'Man know thyself'

Michael
05-13-2001, 05:22 AM
I am very partial to Leonore Number One (the Overture, that is). It seems to be the ugly duckling of the four operatic overtures, but I find it very tuneful especially in its use of Florestan's theme.
And listen to what brilliant use Beethoven makes of stereo, near the beginning where the theme travels from left to right (or is it the other way round?) I tell you, the man was centuries ahead of his time! I must listen out for some multi-channel effects in his late quartets.

Michael

Rod
05-13-2001, 10:09 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
No, not the wrong composition. I feel that both Leonora 2 & 3 are too long for the purpose for which they were written, & for the thematic material used. Each of these runs for about 14 minutes in my collection (sounds about right to me). The snappier, shorter overtures: Fidelio, Egmont & Coriolanus are perhaps his most successful efforts. I also like the tuneful King Stephen.



Leonore ii and iii are too long and out of context to begin the opera as it finaly stood, but ok for the much broader original concept. But both are valid concert pieces on their own. I'm not sure that both lasting about 14 mins should be about right - no iii is a reduction of noii! Both are typically played too broadly (espec noii) for my taste in the first place. One rarely hears a 'snappy' rendition of the Egmont. This is usually performed allegro ponderoso!!

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
05-13-2001, 10:13 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I prefer Leonora 3 to the Fidelio overture.



That opinion is a matter of taste, but in practical terms Fidelio is the only overture that can open the final version of the opera. Leonore is too heavy for the opening scene. Personally I think the 'Fidelio' overture is a cracking piece, even by the standards of the best of the others.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Joy
05-16-2001, 08:05 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
I prefer Leonora 3 to the Fidelio overture.


Since we're discussing the Leonore and Fidelio overtures here, I was listening to my classical radio station and they played all 4 renditions. Personally I like Leonore#2. It's more darker, more tragic than
#3. Also, I like the silence in between the opening notes more than when B filled in those silences with notes in #3. I suppose you could say #3 is more traditional musically than #2. Also, does anyone know if Fidelio is ever performed anymore? Maybe in Europe? Have any of you ever seen this opera. I would love to see it one day. I have read where B almost likened himself to Floristan being thrown into a dark silent cell almost like B's silent world around him.
Joy

Peter
05-16-2001, 02:05 PM
Originally posted by Joy:
[B Also, does anyone know if Fidelio is ever performed anymore? Maybe in Europe? Have any of you ever seen this opera. I would love to see it one day. I have read where B almost likened himself to Floristan being thrown into a dark silent cell almost like B's silent world around him.
Joy[/B]

As far as I am aware this opera is standard repertoire throughout the opera houses of the world! Regretfully I have never seen a live performance of Fidelio - the ideal place would of course be in Vienna (where hopefully I shall be later this year!).

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
05-16-2001, 04:37 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
As far as I am aware this opera is standard repertoire throughout the opera houses of the world! Regretfully I have never seen a live performance of Fidelio - the ideal place would of course be in Vienna (where hopefully I shall be later this year!).


They're performing Fidelio at Glyndebourne soon. You can book seats now! Too far away for me though. I believe Gardiner performed the 1805 version live, though he may have used a narrator between the music numbers instead of the original dialogue, as is the case with his recent Leonore recording - all in all a totally ridiculous thing to do - Gardiner will be forever in my 'bad books' because of this, and I'm sure this will upset him terribly.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
05-16-2001, 07:15 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
They're performing Fidelio at Glyndebourne soon. You can book seats now! Too far away for me though. I believe Gardiner performed the 1805 version live, though he may have used a narrator between the music numbers instead of the original dialogue, as is the case with his recent Leonore recording - all in all a totally ridiculous thing to do - Gardiner will be forever in my 'bad books' because of this, and I'm sure this will upset him terribly.




Is that the Simon Rattle version? You can rarely obtain seats at Glyndebourne (the most elitist establishment in Britain!) as most go to business sponsors and members (it takes up to 40 years to become a member!). There are only ever tickets available for fringe events and the least popular operas, otherwise it is a case of who you know - I was unfortunate enough to go twice - unfortunate as the atmosphere is unbearably stuck up amongst such an unmusical crowd.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
05-16-2001, 07:40 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Is that the Simon Rattle version? You can rarely obtain seats at Glyndebourne (the most elitist establishment in Britain!) as most go to business sponsors and members (it takes up to 40 years to become a member!). There are only ever tickets available for fringe events and the least popular operas, otherwise it is a case of who you know - I was unfortunate enough to go twice - unfortunate as the atmosphere is unbearably stuck up amongst such an unmusical crowd.


Just as well I've never been there. There's a video of an earlier Glyndebourne performance of Fidelio available on DVD. A bit of a cheap production set-wise, but the playing and singing are good.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Joy
05-17-2001, 06:22 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
As far as I am aware this opera is standard repertoire throughout the opera houses of the world! Regretfully I have never seen a live performance of Fidelio - the ideal place would of course be in Vienna (where hopefully I shall be later this year!).



What a wonderful trip to look forward to! Where are some of the places you plan to visit? Don't forget to send us a postcard or two. (Ha). Do tell us all about it upon your return.
Joy

Peter
05-17-2001, 01:59 PM
Originally posted by Joy:

What a wonderful trip to look forward to! Where are some of the places you plan to visit? Don't forget to send us a postcard or two. (Ha). Do tell us all about it upon your return.
Joy

Having been to Vienna previously aged 17 (the same age as B on his first visit!) I've already done all the touristy things such as Schonnbrun, Spanish riding school, Strudel! etc - so this time I intend concentrating solely on Beethoven and will visit as many Beethoven sites as possible, including a visit to the original burial place at the old Wahring cemetry, (now the Schubert park) - this will provide a whole range of new photos for this site, so you will all be able to enjoy the fruits of this trip! This will be around the beginning of August.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
05-17-2001, 04:00 PM
Originally posted by Michael:
I am very partial to Leonore Number One (the Overture, that is). It seems to be the ugly duckling of the four operatic overtures, but I find it very tuneful especially in its use of Florestan's theme.
And listen to what brilliant use Beethoven makes of stereo, near the beginning where the theme travels from left to right (or is it the other way round?) I tell you, the man was centuries ahead of his time! I must listen out for some multi-channel effects in his late quartets.

Michael

Just noticed your post, I agree about no1, but the Namensfeier overture is an even uglier duckling! I agree about B's use of stereo, which is why I prefer the 1st and 2nd violins to be isolated from each other, with the 2nds placed to the right of the conductor. This improved the balance of the sound and reveals some excellent stereo effects. The 7th symphony is a good source of stereo effects.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
05-17-2001, 04:31 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Having been to Vienna previously aged 17 (the same age as B on his first visit!) I've already done all the touristy things such as Schonnbrun, Spanish riding school, Strudel! etc.....


I, too, hate to nit-pick, but Beethoven was still 16 when he first visited Vienna. Touche! And I, too, turn 40 in 18 months!!!

Peter
05-17-2001, 04:38 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
I, too, hate to nit-pick, but Beethoven was still 16 when he first visited Vienna. Touche! And I, too, turn 40 in 18 months!!!

A well deserved slap on the wrist! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/redface.gif


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'Man know thyself'

Joy
05-19-2001, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Having been to Vienna previously aged 17 (the same age as B on his first visit!) I've already done all the touristy things such as Schonnbrun, Spanish riding school, Strudel! etc - so this time I intend concentrating solely on Beethoven and will visit as many Beethoven sites as possible, including a visit to the original burial place at the old Wahring cemetry, (now the Schubert park) - this will provide a whole range of new photos for this site, so you will all be able to enjoy the fruits of this trip! This will be around the beginning of August.


Fantastic. Looking forward to it.
Joy

Michael
05-19-2001, 07:57 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Having been to Vienna previously aged 17 (the same age as B on his first visit!) I've already done all the touristy things such as Schonnbrun, Spanish riding school, Strudel! etc - so this time I intend concentrating solely on Beethoven and will visit as many Beethoven sites as possible.


I don't know if the newly-opened "Haus der Musik" could be described as "touristy" but it is Vienna's latest visitor attraction. In its advertising it uses buzz-words such as "Interactivity, infotainment, edutainment" which makes one fear the worst and it certainly seems to be full of gimmicks but it does have a "Beethoven Room" as well as a "Melody Wood" which sounds ominous. If you make it off, be sure and tell us all about it.

Michael

PDG
05-19-2001, 05:39 PM
I wonder if that's the Melody Wood I had a crush on at school?.......(sigh).......

Michael
05-19-2001, 06:10 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
I wonder if that's the Melody Wood I had a crush on at school?.......(sigh).......

You're thinking of Penny Lane

M.

Claudie MICAULT
05-19-2001, 08:59 PM
O.K., there is a lot to "feel" about B. in VIENNA... But I suggest you go (it is not far away) in BONN : the B. Archives in B.s HAUS (manuscripts...) are really the must for me (With my man we had the possibility to get a copy of parts of opus 110 and 111 just asking them). Naturally, you have to make an appointment... and to insist that you are a B.'s specialist. We shall have (soon) the B.'s on the WEB, but the "atmosphere" there is something any "Beethovenian" have to enjoy.

Peter
05-19-2001, 09:20 PM
Originally posted by Claudie MICAULT:
O.K., there is a lot to "feel" about B. in VIENNA... But I suggest you go (it is not far away) in BONN : the B. Archives in B.s HAUS (manuscripts...) are really the must for me (With my man we had the possibility to get a copy of parts of opus 110 and 111 just asking them). Naturally, you have to make an appointment... and to insist that you are a B.'s specialist. We shall have (soon) the B.'s on the WEB, but the "atmosphere" there is something any "Beethovenian" have to enjoy.

I have visited the Beethovenhaus in Bonn, but not the archives as I was 17 at the time and I don't think they would have thought of me as a B specialist!

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'Man know thyself'

Claudie MICAULT
05-20-2001, 07:12 PM
Now you are a specialist ! Just go...

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Claudie