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MaryKirk
05-02-2001, 04:54 AM
PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! I need help!! I am doing a paper on Beethoven and his inspiration for Fur Elise. My mother always played that piece when I was younger, and I need to tie myself into the paper. I thought maybe his inspiration what somewhat like the reason my mother always played it.

Peter
05-02-2001, 02:11 PM
The Bagatelle in A minor(WoO59) known as 'Fur Elise' was written in 1810 for Therese Malfatti - a lady Beethoven was considering marrying at that time. Nothing came of this, as Therese's father (Dr.Giovanni Malfatti, who treated Beethoven in his final illness) objected to the union and she was married in 1816 to Baron Von Drosdick. In a letter of May 1810 to Therese, Beethoven refers to the Bagatelle - 'In this letter, beloved Therese, you are receiving what I promised you.'

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'Man know thyself'

PDG
05-02-2001, 04:04 PM
And just in case Mary is still a little confused, the majority opinion is that the dedication to 'Elise' should really have read 'Therese' - Beethoven's scruffy handwriting on the score being confused by the publisher.
It is also possible that B meant 'Elise', this being an affectionate term for a loved one (in this case, still Therese Malfatti).

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PDG (Peter)

Rod
05-03-2001, 06:03 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
And just in case Mary is still a little confused, the majority opinion is that the dedication to 'Elise' should really have read 'Therese' - Beethoven's scruffy handwriting on the score being confused by the publisher.
It is also possible that B meant 'Elise', this being an affectionate term for a loved one (in this case, still Therese Malfatti).


The latest writings suggest 'Elise' is correct. I'd like to see the handwriting myself, but B typically used 'pet' names for females he was particularly close to.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Oleg
06-18-2001, 12:10 AM
Stiil not clear how Therese could become Elise even with scruffy handwriting.
Does anyone know?
That's very ineresting.
Thank you.

Claudie MICAULT
06-18-2001, 12:33 AM
At this time Elise was also a nickname for Therese.
Doktor Giovanni MALFATTI was not the father, but the uncle of Thrse. Anyway he gave to his family an advise against the mariage for he thought B. a "strange man"... and knew better than others his state of health I guess.

Michael
06-18-2001, 01:01 AM
"Elise" seems to have been a common nickname for a young attractive girl. Beethoven's earliest surviving song (written when he was twelve) is called "Schilderung eines Madchens" (Description of a Young Woman), and a translation of the first verse runs:

"Do you want me, my friend, to describe
Elise to you?
May Uz's spirit
inspire me!"

The words are by that great lyricist "Anon".

Michael

Joy
06-19-2001, 04:40 AM
Originally posted by Michael:
"Elise" seems to have been a common nickname for a young attractive girl. Beethoven's earliest surviving song (written when he was twelve) is called "Schilderung eines Madchens" (Description of a Young Woman), and a translation of the first verse runs:

"Do you want me, my friend, to describe
Elise to you?
May Uz's spirit
inspire me!"

The words are by that great lyricist "Anon".

Michael

Very interesting, Michael, I had never heard that story before.
Joy

aaron842
08-08-2006, 08:07 AM
Originally posted by MaryKirk:
PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! I need help!! I am doing a paper on Beethoven and his inspiration for Fur Elise. My mother always played that piece when I was younger, and I need to tie myself into the paper. I thought maybe his inspiration what somewhat like the reason my mother always played it.Well,this might not help much,but I'll tell you this.I was once told that Beethoven composed that piece for his sister,Elise.I don't know if its true,but thats all I know. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/tongue.gif

aaron842
08-08-2006, 08:11 AM
Originally posted by Oleg:
Stiil not clear how Therese could become Elise even with scruffy handwriting.
Does anyone know?
That's very ineresting.
Thank you.
I don't see how they could get Elise out of Therese either.We're on the same page.

Hofrat
08-08-2006, 09:39 AM
Originally posted by aaron842:
Originally posted by MaryKirk:
PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! I need help!! I am doing a paper on Beethoven and his inspiration for Fur Elise. My mother always played that piece when I was younger, and I need to tie myself into the paper. I thought maybe his inspiration what somewhat like the reason my mother always played it.Well,this might not help much,but I'll tell you this.I was once told that Beethoven composed that piece for his sister, Elise.I don't know if its true,but thats all I know. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/tongue.gif




Dear Aaron;

Beethoven had two sisters: Anna Maria (born and died in 1779) and Maria Margaretha (1786-1787). I seriously doubt that Beethoven would dedicate a piece of music he wrote in 1810 to either of his sisters who died in infancy.


Hofrat

PDG
08-08-2006, 09:54 AM
Originally posted by aaron842:
Originally posted by MaryKirk:
PLEASE!!! PLEASE!!! I need help!! I am doing a paper on Beethoven and his inspiration for Fur Elise. My mother always played that piece when I was younger, and I need to tie myself into the paper. I thought maybe his inspiration what somewhat like the reason my mother always played it.Well,this might not help much,but I'll tell you this.I was once told that Beethoven composed that piece for his sister,Elise.I don't know if its true,but thats all I know. http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/tongue.gif



I'm awash with nostalgia! I'd imagine that MaryKirk's paper has been submitted by now since her urgent request (her only ever post) was made over five years ago!!

Frankli
08-08-2006, 04:40 PM
I don't see how they could get Elise out of Therese either.We're on the same page.

Check this example:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Therese.JPG

It shows how "Elise" could be read where "Therse was written".
It is well-known that Nohl, who discovered the autograph in 1865, had problems with interpreting Beethoven's handwriting, especially with the old-German, which Beethoven still used in 1810.

Nohl discovered the autograph in the inheritance of a lady whose family had been related to the Malfatti's, and the Malfatti's had a daughter named Therese whom Beethoven was in love with for a while. In fact, Therese had given it to this lady before her (T's) death in 1851.
Nohl copied "Fr Elise" and published it, and that's all that we have, since the original has never been seen since then.
So apart from other suggestions in this thread, there are a lot of indications that indeed the correct title would be "Fr Therese".

The above theory comes from Max Unger: "Beethoven and Therese von Malfatti"(1925).

Btw Beethoven didn't explicitely compose the piece for Therese; the first sketches can be found in the Pastoral sketchbook, which is 2 years older. So he probably went through his old sketches searching for something that he could offer her.

Michael
08-08-2006, 11:17 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
I'm awash with nostalgia! I'd imagine that MaryKirk's paper has been submitted by now since her urgent request (her only ever post) was made over five years ago!!



It's nice to know that our scribblings may be preserved for all time! http://www.gyrix.com/ubb/biggrin.gif

Agnes Selby
08-09-2006, 11:06 AM
Originally posted by Frankli:
[b] Check this example:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Therese.JPG

It shows how "Elise" could be read where "Therse was written".
It is well-known that Nohl, who discovered the autograph in 1865, had problems with interpreting Beethoven's handwriting, especially with the old-German, which Beethoven still used in 1810.

Nohl discovered the autograph in the inheritance of a lady whose family had been related to the Malfatti's, and the Malfatti's had a daughter named Therese whom Beethoven was in love with for a while. In fact, Therese had given it to this lady before her (T's) death in 1851.
Nohl copied "Fr Elise" and published it, and that's all that we have, since the original has never been seen since then.
So apart from other suggestions in this thread, there are a lot of indications that indeed the correct title would be "Fr Therese".

The above theory comes from Max Unger: "Beethoven and Therese von Malfatti"(1925).

Btw Beethoven didn't explicitely compose the piece for Therese; the first sketches can be found in the Pastoral sketchbook, which is 2 years older. So he probably went through his old sketches searching for something that he could offer her.


--------------

It all makes sense. The request by Mary was
made 5 years ago and Beethoven
sketched it two years before dedicating it to Terese. Now how about this? Did Beethoven know Terese when he first sketched the work? Perhaps it was intended for another lady. Who was this lady?
Regards,
Agnes.

Cetto von Cronstorff
08-09-2006, 03:37 PM
Originally posted by Frankli:
[b] Check this example:
http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Therese.JPG

It shows how "Elise" could be read where "Therse was written".
It is well-known that Nohl, who discovered the autograph in 1865, had problems with interpreting Beethoven's handwriting, especially with the old-German, which Beethoven still used in 1810.


But the sample you refer to (which is not from the original manuscript, but a reconstruction by Jos van der Zanden) is not in old-German, but in latin script.


Nohl discovered the autograph in the inheritance of a lady whose family had been related to the Malfatti's, and the Malfatti's had a daughter named Therese whom Beethoven was in love with for a while. In fact, Therese had given it to this lady before her (T's) death in 1851.


Unger's theory has been proved inaccurate quite a while ago. The autograph came into the possession of Babette Bredl in Munich via the pianist Rudolf Schachner, who in 1851 had inherited all of Therese von Drossdik's musical scores.


Btw Beethoven didn't explicitely compose the piece for Therese; the first sketches can be found in the Pastoral sketchbook,


Since Beethoven had only sketched a piano figure (which also appears in the last movement of Op. 31/2) and didn't present her with a sketch, we can be certain that he explicitly composed the piece for Therese.

sknox
11-10-2009, 06:06 PM
I was once told that Beethoven wrote Fur Elise on a napkin at a cafe. I can find no verification of this. Does anyone know what part of this may be true or what the truth is? I've following the discussion of Elise versus Therese with some fascination. Thanks for helping; I need the information for a memoir piece I'm writing.

Hofrat
11-10-2009, 07:10 PM
There is an interesting article by Kopitz that appeared on the Internet recently that offers another candidate for Elise. The writer suggests that Elise was Elisabeth Rockel, a singer and younger sister of the tenor who sang the role of Florestan in "Fidelio." She used the nickname Elise and later married Hummel.

Peter
11-10-2009, 07:25 PM
I was once told that Beethoven wrote Fur Elise on a napkin at a cafe. I can find no verification of this. Does anyone know what part of this may be true or what the truth is? I've following the discussion of Elise versus Therese with some fascination. Thanks for helping; I need the information for a memoir piece I'm writing.

First I've heard this, but possible since he sketched some of the late quartets on the shutters of a window! I should however think it more likely fiction.

Michael
11-10-2009, 08:19 PM
First I've heard this, but possible since he sketched some of the late quartets on the shutters of a window!

If it was the Grosse Fuge somebody must have slammed the window on him.

Sorrano
11-11-2009, 02:25 AM
I was once told that Beethoven wrote Fur Elise on a napkin at a cafe. I can find no verification of this. Does anyone know what part of this may be true or what the truth is? I've following the discussion of Elise versus Therese with some fascination. Thanks for helping; I need the information for a memoir piece I'm writing.

I've read that Schubert, at cafes, used to compose waltzes on napkins, the tablecloth, or whatever else was handy but I haven't heard anything of that nature from Beethoven.

Peter
11-11-2009, 07:14 PM
If it was the Grosse Fuge somebody must have slammed the window on him.

Ouch!

Cetto von Cronstorff
11-13-2009, 06:28 AM
This excellent article (in German) presents the current state of research:

Fr Elise (http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/F%C3%BCr_Elise)

Michael
11-13-2009, 01:42 PM
I wonder if this is the same article in English (for the one or two of us that don't speak German):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_Elise

Roehre
11-14-2009, 03:57 PM
There is an interesting article by Kopitz that appeared on the Internet recently that offers another candidate for Elise. The writer suggests that Elise was Elisabeth Rockel, a singer and younger sister of the tenor who sang the role of Florestan in "Fidelio." She used the nickname Elise and later married Hummel.

It seems that a "scientific" article will be published in Bonner Beethovenstudien 6

Cetto von Cronstorff
11-15-2009, 11:14 AM
I wonder if this is the same article in English (for the one or two of us that don't speak German):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fur_Elise

No, it isn't. Especially Chiantore's hypothesis hasn't got a leg to stand on. Regarding Kopitz's theory see my recent posting (http://www.gyrix.com/forums/showpost.php?p=43112&postcount=19). The 'Elise' picture (http://www.frank.dds.nl/Etc/Therese.JPG) must not be taken serious, it is a artificial 'reconstruction' by Jos van der Zanden.

Michael
11-15-2009, 03:56 PM
There is another version of "Fur Elise" at the "Unheard Beethoven" website. It's supposed to be revised by Beethoven. I can't remember it's catalogue number, but I downloaded it some years ago. Much of it is unchanged but the revised portions sound downright weird.

Roehre
11-15-2009, 04:20 PM
There is another version of "Fur Elise" at the "Unheard Beethoven" website. It's supposed to be revised by Beethoven. I can't remember it's catalogue number, but I downloaded it some years ago. Much of it is unchanged but the revised portions sound downright weird.

Do you mean the orchestrated version (which still can be found as WoO 59)?

Michael
11-15-2009, 05:56 PM
No, although it has the same WoO number (59). You can see it here above the orchestrated version:

http://www.unheardbeethoven.org/search/search.pl?criteria=woo

Bonn1770
11-17-2009, 11:58 PM
Julie: "Hello, Mr. Beethoven, what's that?"
Beethoven: "Oh, just a little piece I'm working on. And please, call me Ludwig."
Julie(nervously): "It's beautiful. What's is it called?"
Beethoven: "I was thinking of calling it 'Fur Julie'"
Julie(blushing madly): "Oh Beethoven,really....?"
Beethoven: "Absolutely. Here let me show you the first notes. Come sit next to me..."

...from some crude internet site I'd much rather not link to. :D

Bonn1770
11-18-2009, 06:18 AM
It was originally written by some guy who ran a website concerning modern relationships. The website disappeared years ago but this occasionally gets reposted in many places. It really sheds light on the history of "Fur Elise."

Preston
11-18-2009, 06:31 AM
That is damned ridiculous!

Preston
11-18-2009, 06:43 AM
It really sheds light on the history of "Fur Elise."
I, truly, hope that you do not believe this. The only thing it sheds light on is what crap there is in the world today.

Bonn1770
11-18-2009, 08:08 AM
I, truly, hope that you do not believe this. The only thing it sheds light on is what crap there is in the world today.

I was kidding. And the piece is humorous, if a bit crude.

Michael
11-18-2009, 01:54 PM
Aw! Why didn't I log on before 8.51 am and then I might know what you're all going on about.
Mind you, I always had my suspicions about "Fur Elise". :D

Preston
11-18-2009, 06:17 PM
My fault I missed the joke, :o.