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Claire
05-03-2001, 01:43 AM
which year do you guys consider to be Beethovens most creative year?

[This message has been edited by Claire (edited 05-02-2001).]

Peter
05-03-2001, 04:14 AM
I'd go for 1803 as he produced around 17 works that year - 4 of them major compositions :

Piano sonata in C "Waldstein"(Op.53)
Triple concerto in C(piano,violin,'cello)(Op.56)
Symphony no.3 in Eb "Eroica"(Op.55)
Oratorio "Christ on the mount of olives"(Op.85)


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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-02-2001).]

Chris
05-03-2001, 04:21 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
I'd go for 1803 as it produced more major works than any other and was a major turning point in B's creative process.

Piano sonata in C "Waldstein"(Op.53)
Triple concerto in C(piano,violin,'cello)(Op.56)
Symphony no.3 in Eb "Eroica"(Op.55)
Oratorio "Christ on the mount of olives"(Op.85)



I concur.

PDG
05-03-2001, 05:23 AM
Originally posted by Claire:
which year do you guys consider to be Beethovens most creative year?
[This message has been edited by Claire (edited 05-02-2001).]

Good question, Claire. I can't agree that Christ on the Mount of Olives is major league Beethoven; & although I really like it, the Triple Concerto isn't considered premiership LvB either. Since he rarely started & finished any major work within the same year, I'd plum for 1807/8 in answer to the question. Over this two year period, he did the majority of the work on both the 5th & 6th Symphonies, the Mass in C, the Piano Trios, op.70, the Cello Sonata, op.69, the Choral Fantasia & the 3 Razumovsky Quartets (the compositions link from the home page states that these were written in 1805, but they weren't commissioned until 1806!).

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PDG (Peter)

Peter
05-03-2001, 02:04 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
Good question, Claire. I can't agree that Christ on the Mount of Olives is major league Beethoven; & although I really like it, the Triple Concerto isn't considered premiership LvB either.

They are still major works! - an Oratorio and a Concerto can't be described as trifles!


Since he rarely started & finished any major work within the same year, I'd plum for 1807/8 in answer to the question.

That's not fair! - Claire asked for a single year, not two! In the two years you chose, Beethoven produced 10 works - 7 of them major (although work on the 5th symphony dates from 1804).

(the compositions link from the home page states that these were written in 1805, but they weren't commissioned until 1806!).


Not anymore ! - thanks for pointing that out PDG.

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'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 05-03-2001).]

Rod
05-03-2001, 04:06 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
Good question, Claire. I can't agree that Christ on the Mount of Olives is major league Beethoven; & although I really like it, the Triple Concerto isn't considered premiership LvB either.


Christus... must be one of the most difficult works, as only recently have I heard a recording (I will not live long enough to see a performance!) that comes anywhere near to realising it (I have bought virually all of the others!), which may have some baring on your opinion. It's on the Opus111 label by Das Neue Orchester. Consider no others to date.

The Trio concerto is a good example of why you should not take the taste of scholars or musicians more seriously than your average Joe on the street. Good judgement is something you do not learn. The other concertos suffer nothing by having it in their company. If you had heard it live you may consider it one of the best!




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
05-03-2001, 05:12 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
Christus... must be one of the most difficult works, as only recently have I heard a recording (I will not live long enough to see a performance!) that comes anywhere near to realising it (I have bought virually all of the others!), which may have some baring on your opinion. It's on the Opus111 label by Das Neue Orchester. Consider no others to date.

Thanks for that Rod - I'll check it out. At least the expense you have gone to has been put to good use here!

The Trio concerto is a good example of why you should not take the taste of scholars or musicians more seriously than your average Joe on the street. Good judgement is something you do not learn. The other concertos suffer nothing by having it in their company. If you had heard it live you may consider it one of the best!




I've always been fond of this concerto. Most of the criticism it receives is directed at the last movement, and even there mainly at the closing pages which are considered hastily written - I've always found it exhilerating! Even the harshest critics of this concerto wouldn't deny the beauty of the slow movement. Another problem has always been getting 3 soloists of a suitable calibre.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
05-03-2001, 05:47 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

I've always been fond of this concerto. Most of the criticism it receives is directed at the last movement, and even there mainly at the closing pages which are considered hastily written - I've always found it exhilerating! Even the harshest critics of this concerto wouldn't deny the beauty of the slow movement. Another problem has always been getting 3 soloists of a suitable calibre.


Surprise surprise, I have only recently read such a critisim of the slow movement!! The writer claimed it's too short to make its point! I've read various other comments regarding the awkward sounding nature of some of the passages in the first and last movments, but B uses such things as tension-making devices, and regardless, on period instruments especially, everything gels together nicely to my ears.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
05-03-2001, 06:33 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Christus... must be one of the most difficult works, as only recently have I heard a recording (I will not live long enough to see a performance!) that comes anywhere near to realising it (I have bought virually all of the others!), which may have some baring on your opinion. It's on the Opus111 label by Das Neue Orchester. Consider no others to date.

It's not my opinion - I am very fond of Christus! But it is not held in high regard, generally speaking. It has been suggested that perhaps the reason why Beethoven is not considered a great vocal composer, is that voices, somehow, define the music they accompany, thus depriving the mind of completely free emotional response.

I have a mono recording of Christus, recorded for Dutch radio, in 1957 (on BellaVoce); it's a bit creaky, here & there, but does feature the great tenor, Fritz Wunderlich.

The Trio concerto is a good example of why you should not take the taste of scholars or musicians more seriously than your average Joe on the street. Good judgement is something you do not learn. The other concertos suffer nothing by having it in their company. If you had heard it live you may consider it one of the best!


Again, I love the fact that Beethoven released his vice-like grip on fate (!) to write this very agreeable work. I've not heard it live http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/frown.gif but I agree with your other comments.

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PDG (Peter)