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kerryblue
04-11-2001, 03:25 AM
Greetings. I'm looking for help regarding the subject quartet. First, your suggestions please as to the definitive recording of same.

Second, I recall a story that my father told me of a famous person who, in order to convince his equally famous atheistic friend of the existence of God played for him the third movement of the quartet. The friend listened attentively, and at the conclusion affirmed his atheism all the more, but I can't recall the reasons behind his thought--something along the lines of there can't be a God, for only a man who had lived on this earth and suffered could compose such majestic melodies. Could soemone please provide me with the real story.

Many thanks

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Cheers!

Peter
04-11-2001, 03:49 PM
There are two recordings I would recommend :

Alban Berg Quartet -
Op.131 & 132 CDR 5 69793 2

Quartetto Italiano - Op 132. DG 459 063-2

I haven't heard your story before, so I can't help you with that - along similar lines, I recall an interview with Solti where he said that two things in life convinced him of the existence of God: the birth of his daughter, and Mozart.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
04-11-2001, 06:08 PM
Originally posted by kerryblue:
Greetings. I'm looking for help regarding the subject quartet. First, your suggestions please as to the definitive recording of same.

Second, I recall a story that my father told me of a famous person who, in order to convince his equally famous atheistic friend of the existence of God played for him the third movement of the quartet. The friend listened attentively, and at the conclusion affirmed his atheism all the more, but I can't recall the reasons behind his thought--something along the lines of there can't be a God, for only a man who had lived on this earth and suffered could compose such majestic melodies. Could soemone please provide me with the real story.

Many thanks


I have a very good CD on Decca by the Fitzwilliam Quartet, it is no longer in the catalogue, but if you find it somewhere, BUY IT. I can't imagine it bettered on modern instruments - the pace and communication in the ensemble is spot on. If they played like this on authentic strings (which would smooth over a few unavoidably rough edges), then that would be really something! The recording is so good I've only ever bothered to listen to one other version, by the Lindsay Quartet, which is awfull by comparison.

On your second point I would agree with the mans friend, but I would not say I am an atheist - when anything man does wrong, or there is some disaster as a result, when is God given the credit? - therefore when man (ok, or woman) does something miraculous, give man his due. It is God who will learn through Beethoven, not vice versa.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Kevin
04-11-2001, 08:29 PM
Well said!

Chris
04-11-2001, 08:36 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
...when anything man does wrong, or there is some disaster as a result, when is God given the credit?


Um...all the time.



[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 04-11-2001).]

Rod
04-11-2001, 09:24 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Um...all the time.

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 04-11-2001).]

I try and say something profound, as befits the 'chosen one', and you ruin it!

PS: Did I tell you I got an email fro John Suchet today regarding his website devoted to the master? I gave him a few wise tips. Not that I'm the shallow, name dropping sort of person of course.



[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-11-2001).]

Peter
04-12-2001, 12:51 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
PS: Did I tell you I got an email fro John Suchet today regarding his website devoted to the master? I gave him a few wise tips. Not that I'm the shallow, name dropping sort of person of course.



I'd be interested to know what he had to say - nothing deflammatory about us here I hope! I was going to attend one of his talks a week or so ago, but other commitments prevailed.

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
04-19-2001, 07:37 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I'd be interested to know what he had to say - nothing deflammatory about us here I hope! I was going to attend one of his talks a week or so ago, but other commitments prevailed.


He did not mention this site, but rather we were discussing his own. He's interested in starting a B Forum so watch out! I said their is not currently a great demand for such things, but he is in the public domain (he's still a TV news reader here in the UK) so people may be drawn to that. But I don't think he has the time to develop the site as he would wish.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
04-19-2001, 10:01 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
He did not mention this site, but rather we were discussing his own. He's interested in starting a B Forum so watch out!

Didn't mention this site!! Was he trying to poach you for moderator?

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'Man know thyself'

Claire W
04-20-2001, 11:32 PM
Don't knock the Lindsay quartet. They're the professional quartet in residence in my dept. here in good old Manc!! Any slur on them I would take personally! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif
The viola guy (I forget his name) broke his arm last month whilst in Switzerland I think, but don't go quoting me on that. Also the guy who plays the second violin has a hole in his forehead, well a good indentation anyway. I heard them playing some B not so long ago, and I must say, I was moved. They did a whole season of B 4ets last year. Most of the performances were fantastic, however some weren't so hot. I also heard them do some Shostakovich which was quite good, except for the first violin blokie givin gan introductory talk which was to say the least boring. Never mind eh.

Did you know, the country's leading Beethoven expert is my lecturer; the one and only Barry Cooper! So there you go. (not to do any more name dropping)

Michael
04-21-2001, 03:45 AM
Originally posted by Claire W:
Did you know, the country's leading Beethoven expert is my lecturer; the one and only Barry Cooper! So there you go. (not to do any more name dropping)

[/B]

I am just on the last chapter of his excellent new book on Beethoven, Claire. What I enjoyed most about it was the fact that he devotes about 75 per cent of his text to the actual compositions. If only I could read music I would get the full benefit of the book, but I know the works so well by ear that I can generally follow his drift.
Also, I never realised until now how little is actually known about Beethoven's life. Most of the stories I had accepted as true have been shown by Dr Cooper as being, at the best, hearsay.

Michael

P.S. Rod - I have had TWO e-mails from John Suchet - so there!


[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 04-20-2001).]

Peter
04-21-2001, 01:28 PM
Originally posted by Michael:
I am just on the last chapter of his excellent new book on Beethoven, Claire. What I enjoyed most about it was the fact that he devotes about 75 per cent of his text to the actual compositions. If only I could read music I would get the full benefit of the book, but I know the works so well by ear that I can generally follow his drift.
Also, I never realised until now how little is actually known about Beethoven's life. Most of the stories I had accepted as true have been shown by Dr Cooper as being, at the best, hearsay.

Michael

P.S. Rod - I have had TWO e-mails from John Suchet - so there!




I've read John Suchet's review where he also praises this book - apparently Cooper comes to the same conclusions as Solomon about the 'Immortal beloved' (Antonie Brentano). Isn't Barry Cooper the man who 'realised' the 10th Symphony?

I'm feeling left out of all this Suchet correspondence as he has not contacted me - is he trying to poach people away from this site to set up his own forum?

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'Man know thyself'

PDG
04-21-2001, 03:55 PM
Yes, Dr. Cooper realised a first mvt only of a possible 10th symphony, but since we don't want to upset ClaireW, the least said about this, the better!

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PDG (Peter)

Claire W
04-21-2001, 09:04 PM
I LOVE our Barry!!! I must say, he's quite scary cos he knows so much about everything. How can all that information be in one head? Whats wrong with his realisation? Hmmmm?

Claire
XXXX (for my Barry, Dr Cooper to everyone else!)

Claire W
04-21-2001, 09:09 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
Yes, Dr. Cooper realised a first mvt only of a possible 10th symphony, but since we don't want to upset ClaireW, the least said about this, the better!



Hmmmm? Whats wrong with it. Remember I LOVE Barry , Dr Cooper to the rest of you.

PDG
04-21-2001, 11:53 PM
Originally posted by Claire W:
Hmmmm? Whats wrong with it. Remember I LOVE Barry , Dr Cooper to the rest of you.

Well, at the risk of falling out with a 2nd or 3rd Claire (I lose count) http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif in as many days, your Barry's 10th Symphony movement, depite being well researched & painstakingly realised, was perhaps ill-advised. I'd have preferred him to leave well alone; if Beethoven couldn't finish it, then no one else should try. The piece meanders too much between the original sketches. Maybe Dr. Cooper showed too much respect for the sketches(!), for his linking sections are very bland by comparison. And I have heard his lecture on this subject.
Mr. Cooper may be on your Valentine's card list, but he is certainly not on mine! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/biggrin.gif
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PDG (Peter)

[This message has been edited by PDG (edited 04-21-2001).]

Peter
04-22-2001, 04:07 AM
Originally posted by Claire W:
Hmmmm? Whats wrong with it. Remember I LOVE Barry , Dr Cooper to the rest of you.



Well it's NOT Beethoven however cleverly put together. I doubt Beethoven's 10th would have had much in common with Dr.Cooper's realisation. So it does beg the question why bother? What real purpose do these completions serve, particularly in the case of Beethoven whose original ideas are known to bear little resemblance to the final work?
Please don't take offence Claire, as I'm not belittling the skill of Dr.Cooper, I simply do not accept his realisation as Beethoven's 10th.

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'Man know thyself'

Claire W
04-22-2001, 04:32 AM
No offence taken. I must agree, although I love Barry dearly. No matter how well put together it is it still isnt Beethoven really is it?

Claire
XXXXX

Ps I assure you, there is only on Claire like me!

I really must try and not send this kind twice. So much uni work- kinda mushes the brain!

Rod
04-23-2001, 04:27 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
...Was he trying to poach you for moderator?


On the contrary, it was myself who initiated the initial contact via his site, and Mr Suchet had the good grace to reply. He is not after my services, but frankly I've lost interest in the moderator game - the 'market' isn't ready for me yet.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-23-2001).]

Rod
04-23-2001, 04:49 PM
Originally posted by Claire W:
Don't knock the Lindsay quartet. They're the professional quartet in residence in my dept. here in good old Manc!! Any slur on them I would take personally! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif

Sorry, but I've spent alot of money buying these guys' cds based on their PR and reviews but I don't rate them with Beethoven at least. On occasion they can really be spot on, but too often their playing is well below par (messy is a word that comes to mind) compared to some other ensembles.

Originally posted by Claire W:

Did you know, the country's leading Beethoven expert is my lecturer; the one and only Barry Cooper! So there you go. (not to do any more name dropping)


The 'recreation' of the 10th aside, I would say Cooper is in general a reasoned voice in his Beethoven writings, a rare thing in Beethovenian literature!

Whilst on the subject of Beethoven writers may I say something regarding Schindler's occasional deliberate 'rewriting of history' in his B biography - from my recent reading it appears that, far from S being some kind of evil maveric, this was in fact the average standard of biographical writing in those days, at least with regard to composers! More learned scholars than S were at least as capable of twisting the truth to fit their own subjective preferences as S, so one could say their 'crime' was the greater. One must put S's behaviour into perspective, truely objective biography writing didn't exist in those days. One could say even writers today are all too quick to jump to the wrong conclusions to suit their own agenda.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 04-23-2001).]