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marco
02-14-2001, 08:27 PM
Somewhere I my mind I remember having ones seen a booklet with most metronome markings of Beethoven for his own works. In particular am I looking for metronome markings for the piano trio in B-flat Op.97. Perhaps someone konws if I'm completely mistaken about this, or that in fact I'm right about it, and could help me find these metronome markings. many thanks.

Rod
02-15-2001, 10:50 AM
Originally posted by marco:
Somewhere I my mind I remember having ones seen a booklet with most metronome markings of Beethoven for his own works. In particular am I looking for metronome markings for the piano trio in B-flat Op.97. Perhaps someone konws if I'm completely mistaken about this, or that in fact I'm right about it, and could help me find these metronome markings. many thanks.

I'm not sure if he left markings for this work, but I can say the first and last movements are usually played TOO moderate, and the scherzo ridiculously so. If you're a performer the trio must be repeated, something almost never done.

PDG
02-21-2001, 10:23 PM
For me, what spoils certain recordings of the Archduke, op.97, is that held chord just before the finale. It sounds dischordant when the string players are too hesitant with it. I`ve not seen the score, so what are those cello & violin notes? Why do performers find this passage tricky?

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Peter (PDG)

deSitter
02-22-2001, 07:45 PM
Beethoven did indeed suggest metronome markings on some of the later piano sonatas. Since he was not very good at math, some of these are thought to be errors. The sonata Op. 106 has a metronome mark that only the most extraordinary virtuosi can negotiate, and it sounds too fast at that speed.

I don't think he notated the piano trios, but I'm not sure.

Sidebar: Beethoven knew the inventor of the metronome, Maelzel, and wrote a piece, a "battle symphony", "Wellington's Victory" Op. 91, for a mechanical one-man band Maelzel invented called the "panharmonicon". It is widely regarded as one of his worst pieces http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif
http://mmd.foxtail.com/Archives/Digests/199808/1998.08.17.10.html

Michael
02-23-2001, 01:11 AM
Originally posted by deSitter:
Beethoven did indeed suggest metronome markings on some of the later piano sonatas. Since he was not very good at math, some of these are thought to be errors. The sonata Op. 106 has a metronome mark that only the most extraordinary virtuosi can negotiate, and it sounds too fast at that speed.



I think I remember reading somewhere a theory that people who are deaf hear music in their minds at a faster speed than it really is or should be. I can't remember where I came across this but it might explain Beethoven's fast metronome markings.

Michael

chrisg
02-23-2001, 04:15 AM
Sidebar: Beethoven knew the inventor of the metronome, Maelzel, and wrote a piece, a "battle symphony", "Wellington's Victory" Op. 91, for a mechanical one-man band Maelzel invented called the "panharmonicon". It is widely regarded as one of his worst pieces

Not by me. It's tremendously exciting and flat out fun. Beethoven "Lite" it may be, but so what? The man was allowed to have a little fun with his music.

cg

PDG
02-23-2001, 11:11 AM
If deSITTER is referring to the panharmonicon version of Wellington`s victory, then one would have to agree, but no piece of music COULD sound good on this frankensteinian contraption. It was later that Beethoven rescored it for orchestra, & here I agree with chrisg: it is not brilliant music, but it was written for a specific purpose. It was never going to make it into the standard repertoire. As military music goes (& I`m not a fan), I`d say it`s among the best.

Re: Maezel, I like the story of Beethoven writing to "The Musicians of London" asking them to boycott the work when the inventor tried to organise a concert in London, following his bust-up with the composer.

Now, what about that chord in op.97? Anyone?

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Peter (PDG)

Peter
02-23-2001, 04:50 PM
Originally posted by PDG:
If deSITTER is referring to the panharmonicon version of Wellington`s victory, then one would have to agree, but no piece of music COULD sound good on this frankensteinian contraption. It was later that Beethoven rescored it for orchestra, & here I agree with chrisg: it is not brilliant music, but it was written for a specific purpose. It was never going to make it into the standard repertoire. As military music goes (& I`m not a fan), I`d say it`s among the best.




B was rather partial to the piece himself as it was 'the work that finally conquered the Viennese' - the 1814 concerts were a highlight of B's career (from which he was able to purchase 8 bank shares) and never again would he achieve such acclaim in his lifetime. I think the music is good fun as Chrisg says - obviously it doen't measure up to the 7th Symphony (performed at the same time), but not much does !

I'll check that Op.97 chord out over the weekend - life is rather hectic at the moment !

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'Man know thyself'

Michael
02-23-2001, 08:45 PM
Wellington's Victory is a great piece for showing off your hi-fi. When I bought a new setup some years ago, I played Karajan's version for a friend who has no interest whatsoever in classical music and he nearly went through the roof. (With delight, I hasten to add).
I never really thought much of this piece until some years ago when I bought Antal Dorati's classic recording which was re-issued on CD. Before that I had heard only Karajan's version where the actual music is buried beneath his percussion or rattlers or whatever the hell Herbert used to portray gunfire. Dorati's version uses genuine cannons and muskets but he contrives to make the music clearly heard above all this cacophany - and it was a bit of a revelation to me.
Recently, on our only classical music station, somebody started to play a recording of "Wellington's Victory" (Karajan's version) but about half-way through, he stopped the CD and apologised to his listeners. He said something along the lines that "this was a very strange piece and not really suitable - I hadn't heard it before and I apologise.....etc."
I am still trying to figure out what his problem was. Maybe, because it's a drive-time programme, he was afraid his listeners would crash their vehicles. The same guy doesn't play much Beethoven anyway........

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-23-2001).]

Rod
02-24-2001, 07:05 PM
Originally posted by Michael:

Recently, on our only classical music station, somebody started to play a recording of "Wellington's Victory" (Karajan's version) but about half-way through, he stopped the CD and apologised to his listeners. He said something along the lines that "this was a very strange piece and not really suitable - I hadn't heard it before and I apologise.....etc."

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-23-2001).]

What a great story! I suggest the DJ thought it wasn't the easy listening classical music typically played for its typically easy listening listeners! Or perhaps he just thought the music stunk...

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

chrisg
02-24-2001, 07:25 PM
Recently, on our only classical music station, somebody started to play a recording of "Wellington's Victory" (Karajan's version) but about half-way through, he stopped the CD
and apologised to his listeners.

Too bad, the fool left out the best part. It's the final "Victory Symphony" section, which is purely orchestral, that really knocks me out. Maazel / VPO (those horns!!) is spectacular here.

cg

Michael
02-25-2001, 01:46 AM
Originally posted by chrisg:
Too bad, the fool left out the best part. It's the final "Victory Symphony" section, which is purely orchestral, that really knocks me out. Maazel / VPO (those horns!!) is spectacular here.

cg[/B]

The presenter admitted that he hadn't listened to the piece before broadcasting it, and if he had waited a minute longer, the percussion section would have ended and the "Victory Symphony" would have kicked in. But maybe that would have been too much for his easy-listening audience.
To give the chap credit, he does play a lot of unusual and unknown repertoire, but he doesn't seem to realise that Beethoven can supply that, too. I think he has become wary of our boy since the battle of Vittoria.

Michael