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euphony131
02-14-2001, 01:43 AM
I've noticed time and again the importance of having a decent sound system or audiopile-quality headphones (Grados are my fav) to truly savor Classical Music.

Trying to turn others onto Beethoven has been near impossible with the equipment so many people normally have. Pop music is very forgiving -- with its steady bass beat and synthesizers and whatnot -- on even poor equipment, but Beethoven begs for higher-end stuff. I always feel cheated trying to listen to Classical in somebody's stock car system or budget-buy stereo.

It's a shame because so many people don't know what they're missing, thus the prevailing stereotype that all Classical has a "boring" sound. I myself cannot afford the truly high-end stuff, but the best recourse has been using Grado headphones -- that's right, I get the best sound, for my money, from a pair of cans set on my ears. It's not for everyone granted, but if you don't have the bucks or the right room acoustics I think it really is the way to go.

I assume others have noticed the problems I've mentioned, especially when trying to show a newcomer to the delights of B.? It can really be infuriating with all the shoddy stuff people use to listen to Pop music and since that's what most people only listen to they don't bother to get better equipment.

I once heard a Dvorak symphony that someone was playing out of their TV and it was just godawful, no wonder that person hardly listens to Classical!

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 02-13-2001).]

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 02-13-2001).]

Michael
02-14-2001, 03:07 AM
Certainly with a composer like Beethoven you would need a reasonably decent sound system, if only to deal properly with the dynamic range of his music. If I ever win the lottery, the first thing I will purchase is a really high-end system, although, thanks to CD, it is now possible to get good sound without having to sell your house.
I am a great headphone fan, too, and last Christmas I treated myself to a really good pair of Sennheisers. I find I actually prefer listening to works like the late quartets through cans. I think it brings me a little closer to the way Beethoven heard that music - in his head.

Michael

Rod
02-14-2001, 11:22 AM
We have a bog-standard Bush portable stereo at work which, as has been said, is fine for pop music, but I can't listen to my own music on the machine. Beethovens music requires greater dynamic range than the speakers can offer, though some music will not be saved by having this extra range - I had the misfortune to listen to Mahler's awful 5th Symphony at the weekend on good quality headphones. I must have had too much time on my hands.




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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Luis
02-15-2001, 07:39 AM
Originally posted by Rod:
We have a bog-standard Bush portable stereo at work which, as has been said, is fine for pop music, but I can't listen to my own music on the machine. Beethovens music requires greater dynamic range than the speakers can offer, though some music will not be saved by having this extra range - I had the misfortune to listen to Mahler's awful 5th Symphony at the weekend on good quality headphones. I must have had too much time on my hands.


WoohOOW wait a minute!!! Oh yes; I can’t believe what I’ve read, but Rod has been listening Mahler!!! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/eek.gif Ok, Rod, you called the 5th awful, but still, you spent 70 minutes hearing it!!! (There wasn’t anyone holding gun in your head or something like than, was it??) What happened then? Have you suddenly get yourself right into SM? http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif Most likely, maybe after all there still is a spark of hope for you, my friend http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif
As you somewhat implied, time is obviously the first premise on the enterprise I’m still not sure you’d like to pursuit… but money, willingness and some guidance are others! If you have the first two ones, I can modestly take a part on the later. So here I go. You HAVE to listen Mahler’s 2nd by Bernstein conducting the NYPO on DG before totally dismissing Mahler!! This is not the cheapest one (31U$) but it’s the very best version of the best Mahler symphony. Just go to the CD shop (you can go with sun glasses or maybe a fake beard!!) and listen to the first 6 minutes of the first and fourth movement and the last 6 minutes of the 5th mvt. Then, if you dare, come here and say it didn’t blow your head off! (but you have to promise me you’ll hear this version).
I don’t think you’ll finally end up being a mahlerite; but, who knows, maybe someday you could say “I can barely hold the puke with every single Mahler symphony, except for the 2nd, which is not that bad after all”. Coming from you, with that I would feel content.

By the way, I’m not a psycho even though ( http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif ) I like Mahler!!!

PS: It’s good to “see” you back guys!

Luis.

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 02-15-2001).]

Rod
02-15-2001, 11:53 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
WoohOOW wait a minute!!! Oh yes; I can’t believe what I’ve read, but Rod has been listening Mahler!!! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/eek.gif Ok, Rod, you called the 5th awful, but still, you spent 70 minutes hearing it!!! (There wasn’t anyone holding gun in your head or something like than, was it??) What happened then? Have you suddenly get yourself right into SM? http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif Most likely, maybe after all there still is a spark of hope for you, my friend http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

No hope and no expense was paid by myself, it was on the Radio, switching between stations at some of worst moments. His attempts at rhetoric are laughable on occasion in this work.

Originally posted by Luis:

As you somewhat implied, time is obviously the first premise on the enterprise I’m still not sure you’d like to pursuit… but money, willingness and some guidance are others! If you have the first two ones, I can modestly take a part on the later. So here I go. You HAVE to listen Mahler’s 2nd by Bernstein conducting the NYPO on DG before totally dismissing Mahler!! This is not the cheapest one (31U$) but it’s the very best version of the best Mahler symphony. Just go to the CD shop (you can go with sun glasses or maybe a fake beard!!) and listen to the first 6 minutes of the first and fourth movement and the last 6 minutes of the 5th mvt. Then, if you dare, come here and say it didn’t blow your head off! (but you have to promise me you’ll hear this version).
I don’t think you’ll finally end up being a mahlerite; but, who knows, maybe someday you could say “I can barely hold the puke with every single Mahler symphony, except for the 2nd, which is not that bad after all”. Coming from you, with that I would feel content.

By the way, I’m not a psycho even though ( http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif ) I like Mahler!!!

PS: It’s good to “see” you back guys!

Luis.



After hearing what Bernstein can 'do' with Beethoven I'm not sure about your recommendation! I honestly cannot understand why anyone who likes Beethoven would want to listen to Mahler, but let me know when they let you out of the asylum! If we are to give other composers a chance I suggest it is you who should spend some time listening to the Masters favourite Handel, try Theodora - 200 minutes of non stop sublime music, written at a stroke (I recommend a miraculous staged video production by the Orch of the Age of Enlightenment at the Glyndebourne FO) - what I call REAL music!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Michael
02-15-2001, 08:11 PM
Originally posted by Luis:
WoohOOW wait a minute!!! Oh yes; I can’t believe what I’ve read, but Rod has been listening Mahler!!! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/eek.gif Ok, Rod,
By the way, I’m not a psycho even though ( http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/confused.gif ) I like Mahler!!!

PS: It’s good to “see” you back guys!

Luis.

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 02-15-2001).]


Luis, how did you get that smiley icon to blink? I can't even get the ordinary yellow one.

As usual, raising the tone of the discussion,
Michael

Chris
02-15-2001, 08:59 PM
:) Yellow one
;) Winking one
:eek: Eyes popping one
:confused: Confused one
:D Big grin one
:( Sad one

There are others...

Suzie
02-15-2001, 09:43 PM
PS: It’s good to “see” you back guys!

Luis.


Group hug!!!

Luis
02-16-2001, 04:23 AM
Rod,
Would you please recommend me some findable version of Theodora? Here are a few: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/107-0160788-4010922

Some of them costs almost 50$ ( http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/rolleyes.gif ) but within some time I could afford it if the recording really worth the investment...

From some examples I've heard on Amazon, I'd say I'm not really impressed; But I could give it a better listening on a record store here. In Buenos Aires the cost of this kind of CDs is ridiculous! (My Bernstein's M2 costs 50$!) so if it's possible try to recommend me a good enough version to listen here and the best available to buy on Amazon. Would you?

Many thanks, Luis.

PS: To know how to put some face that is already on a message, you could "reply with quote" it for then seing the "code" on the original message. The face above is two points rolleyes two points.
By the way, is there any page containing all the possible images?

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 02-15-2001).]

Luis
02-16-2001, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by Suzie:

Group hug!!!

http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Luis
02-16-2001, 05:22 AM
(About Mahler “enhancements” of Beethoven symphonies)
1) I don’t see disrespectful from Mahler’s part to make some modifications/additions on B’s symphonies! (By the way I've heard He also made some others on the overtures, the 5th Piano Concerto as well as with the 'serioso' quartet!)
2) From my part I’ve only listened to the ninth (you could find some examples here: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003GIR/qid=982294183/sr=2-2/re f=sc_m_2/107-0160788-4010922 (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B000003GIR/qid=982294183/sr=2-2/ref=sc_m_2/107-0160788-4010922) ) and the modifications are rather modest. Moreover, I'd say that if this CD is not worthy of acquire, this is not because of it having too much Mahler, but because there isn’t enough! In my opinion, it would have being much more “interesting” if it had had more “qualitative” rather than “quantitative” modifications. Here on the ninth, Mahler only restrained himself to add four French horns, woodwinds and a tuba just to emphasize some moments.

The National Symphony Orchestra of Washington performed last year the Mahler’s arrangements of B’s symphonies on their “Beethoven festival” but I’ve never heard of any recording other than the one I mentioned.

Luis

[This message has been edited by Luis (edited 02-15-2001).]

Peter
02-16-2001, 10:08 AM
I think it rather presumptive and arrogant of anyone to think they can improve on Beethoven ! I presume by 'qualitative' you mean you wish Mahler had completely reorchestrated certain passages - why and to what purpose ?
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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 02-16-2001).]

Rod
02-16-2001, 01:26 PM
Originally posted by Luis:
Rod,
Would you please recommend me some findable version of Theodora? Here are a few: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/107-0160788-4010922

Some of them costs almost 50$ ( http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/rolleyes.gif ) but within some time I could afford it if the recording really worth the investment...



The video recommentation I gave is the best version, on Channel 4 video I think. It is good quality stereo and half the price of the best CD versions, which I know are ridiculously expensive. Problem is a lot of Handel stuff is 3 CD's long which works out expensive for new releases. You get little change from £50 for a good Handel opera in London. Theodora is in many respects similar in plot to Fidelio, in fact Florestan's opening dungeon aria sounds rather Handelian! The best CD version is a new recording on Archiv label, can't remember by who (McCreesh I think) by but the box is silver if that's any help!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
02-16-2001, 02:17 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
I think it rather presumptive and arrogant of anyone to think they can improve on Beethoven ! I presume by 'qualitative' you mean you wish Mahler had completely reorchestrated certain passages - why and to what purpose ?

Quite right, and yet you rate Mahler above AC/DC despite this heinous crime! You'd never even dream of Beethoven attempting to re-write, say, Mozart's best works for example. This is a mark of character and self-discipline in an artist. Yet Mozart thought he was clever enough to 'improve' a number of Handels best efforts! Of course M totally missed the plot with Handel and his 'improvements' are today nothing more than curiosities.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
02-16-2001, 06:01 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Yet Mozart thought he was clever enough to 'improve' a number of Handels best efforts! Of course M totally missed the plot with Handel and his 'improvements' are today nothing more than curiosities.




Well the only work by Handel I'm aware of that Mozart retouched is Messiah - he probably did so in order to stimulate interest in a composer who only a few decades after his death was considered old hat and hardly ever performed. At least Mozart thought Handel worth bothering with - as did Haydn who was inspired to write his Oratorios after hearing a performance of Messiah in London.

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'Man know thyself'

euphony131
02-16-2001, 09:53 PM
So glad to see Rod taking over and twisting every thread into a brutal cariacature of what was intended...

Sigh...enuff said. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/frown.gif

<font color="red">A little too much, I think, so I edited it. Everyone knows how Rod is, and if it gets to you, it's best to just ignore it. Posting messages about it are only going to make things worse. Thanks.

Chris</font>

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 02-16-2001).]

euphony131
02-17-2001, 01:23 AM
-- Everyone knows how Rod is, and if it gets to you, it's best to just ignore it.
Chris</font>



What's his problem exactly? Momma not give him enuff toys to play with when he was a kid? If he's gonna continue to be this condemning and vitriolic than you can't blame some of us for wanting to "Fight Fire with Fire." My stance is simply "Let's agree to disagree and go on with our lives." whereas Rod's seems to be "I'm God, You're Sh*t and I will POUND that into you!" Is that fair? Whose really being more judgemental?

PS -- I don't think I'm alone in this.

Chris
02-17-2001, 02:00 AM
I don't blame you at all, and I'm sure you're not alone, but you know very well that challenging him like that will do absolutely no good and only create problems. As far as I can tell, Rod will never change. If you just can't get along with him, pretend his messages don't exist. If you really feel that something needs to be said about it, e-mail him. What else is there to do?

Kevin
02-17-2001, 02:11 AM
Originally posted by Chris:
I don't blame you at all, and I'm sure you're not alone, but you know very well that challenging him like that will do absolutely no good and only create problems. As far as I can tell, Rod will never change. If you just can't get along with him, pretend his messages don't exist. If you really feel that something needs to be said about it, e-mail him. What else is there to do?

chrisg
02-17-2001, 02:53 AM
Damn, and things were going so well.

I think we should all understand that a board like this is all about opinions - and that it should not be necessary to preface every comment with IMHO, IMO, or any variation thereof. The only thing that bothers me are statements that insult another member by proclaiming an opinion wrong. Facts can be wrong, none of us have wrong opionions, tastes, preferences, ... whatever.

IMO, nothing objectionable is going on here. IMHO, e131, you should relax a bit. Try Mozart - very nice. Just MHO of course. That's really two opionions isn't it? Also, IMHO, Twain's famous quote about Wagner's music applies equally well to Mahler. "His music is better than it sounds." I have tried very hard to learn to love Mahler, and just don't get it. That's my problem, so Mahler lovers, please don't be offended, it's just MHO. Actually, I think Mahler really sucks, and... oh, sorry, that's one of those demeaning statements that is insulting to other members, so I won't say it. OK?

It is also my opinion (ISAMO?) that this group is better off with Rod contributing his opinions, even if they're NSH (not so humble.) Oh, and Luis, it's nice to see you back.

Back to Shostokovich I go. He doesn't suck.

IMHO of course.

cg

Suzie
02-17-2001, 07:37 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
[B]I think it rather presumptive and arrogant of anyone to think they can improve on Beethoven ! I presume by 'qualitative' you mean you wish Mahler had completely reorchestrated certain passages - why and to what purpose ?

I saw what I think was a new video of Mahlers reorchestration of the 9th, hosted by, of all people, Patty Smith and she was terribly excited. Who said those were french horns? I thought he added 20 trumpets in the 3rd movement and it was awful! I don't think he did much to the other 3 movements. He was attempting to adjust the modern orchestra for the piece. Waste 'o time.

Suzie
02-17-2001, 07:49 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]So glad to see Rod taking over and twisting every thread into a brutal cariacature of what was intended...

Sigh...enuff said. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/frown.gif

<font color="red">A little too much, I think, so I edited it. Everyone knows how Rod is, and if it gets to you, it's best to just ignore it. Posting messages about it are only going to make things worse. Thanks.

Chris</font>

I am so sick of this! Listen, as an elder on this forum, I feel entitled to provide a lecture, much as the one I provide routinely to my son. On this forum, as in school, as in work, their are all sorts of people. These same personality types are ubiquitous and will be for the rest of your life. Learn NOW to get along. A sense of humor goes a long way. An ability to determine which fight to pick is crucial, because we can't be fighting over everything, can we? We got vitriol here in buckets all over the place! Let's all 'chill' shall we? Thank you and goodnight!

Peter
02-17-2001, 09:37 AM
Common Sense from Suz and Chrisg - Now an end to this please - personal attacks on members will not be allowed in the forum. If you have a complaint, contact the person concerned or the moderators directly. Thank-you.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

Rod
02-17-2001, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Well the only work by Handel I'm aware of that Mozart retouched is Messiah - he probably did so in order to stimulate interest in a composer who only a few decades after his death was considered old hat and hardly ever performed. At least Mozart thought Handel worth bothering with - as did Haydn who was inspired to write his Oratorios after hearing a performance of Messiah in London.


I believe M 'retouched' rather more than Messiah. Beethoven became even more interested in Handel, yet left the scores alone, realising that they were perfect as they were. I suggest Beethoven had the greater power of judgement than the other composers inquestion (boy, I hope this radical statement doesn't pi** people off!).


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
02-17-2001, 03:29 PM
Originally posted by euphony131:
What's his problem exactly? Momma not give him enuff toys to play with when he was a kid? If he's gonna continue to be this condemning and vitriolic than you can't blame some of us for wanting to "Fight Fire with Fire." My stance is simply "Let's agree to disagree and go on with our lives." whereas Rod's seems to be "I'm God, You're Sh*t and I will POUND that into you!" Is that fair? Whose really being more judgemental?

PS -- I don't think I'm alone in this.

Why am I getting all the grief? Peter Peter inferred Mahler's actions were presumptive and arrogant yet he gets away with it!!!

I suggest my detractors should do this place a favour and occasionally come up with a posting that has some substance to it, instead of winging and whining at every opportunity. If I say Mahler was responsible for some fundamental errors of judgement it is because I AM ABSOLUTELY RIGHT. If some of you lack the judgement to understand this don't take it out on me!



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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
02-17-2001, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Why am I getting all the grief? Peter Peter inferred Mahler's actions were presumptive and arrogant yet he gets away with it!!!



Must be my natural charm !




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'Man know thyself'

Peter
02-17-2001, 08:21 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
I believe M 'retouched' rather more than Messiah. Beethoven became even more interested in Handel, yet left the scores alone, realising that they were perfect as they were. I suggest Beethoven had the greater power of judgement than the other composers inquestion (boy, I hope this radical statement doesn't pi** people off!).




Well you'll have to justify that Rod and tell me which other Handel works Mozart retouched - am I not right in saying Beethoven didn't receive Handel's complete works until he was on his death bed ? - a bit late to make any changes ! A flippant remark I know.


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'Man know thyself'

PDG
02-18-2001, 05:28 PM
Originally posted by Suzie:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]So glad to see Rod taking over and twisting every thread into a brutal cariacature of what was intended...
Sigh...enuff said. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/frown.gif
I am so sick of this! Listen, as an elder on this forum, I feel entitled to provide a lecture, much as the one I provide routinely to my son. On this forum, as in school, as in work, their are all sorts of people. These same personality types are ubiquitous and will be for the rest of your life. Learn NOW to get along. A sense of humor goes a long way. An ability to determine which fight to pick is crucial, because we can't be fighting over everything, can we? We got vitriol here in buckets all over the place! Let's all 'chill' shall we? Thank you and goodnight!

Suzie,

I`ve been so busy that I missed out on the earlier group hug. Can I have mine now please? In my absence, it`s good to see that the old place hasn`t changed a bit! I am polishing my crash helmet in preparation for my full return to the fray in a few days. God bless us, every one http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

------------------
Peter (PDG)

Rod
02-18-2001, 06:22 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
Originally posted by Peter:
Well you'll have to justify that Rod and tell me which other Handel works Mozart retouched - am I not right in saying Beethoven didn't receive Handel's complete works until he was on his death bed ? - a bit late to make any changes ! A flippant remark I know.


The others works I have so far discovered:

Alexanders Feast
Acis & Galatea
Ode to St Cecilia's Day

I've seen today a recording of A&G by 'Handel/Mozart' just in case you need a little more evidence. I can look further into the matter if you wish.

Beethoven was familiar with enough of Handel's music to announce Handel was the greatest composer at least 10 years before he read those volumes. I don't think B would have needed the complete works collection to have come to that conclusion. Do you seriously believe that if he had got his hands on the volumes earlier we would now have CDs entitled 'Handel/Beethoven's Water Music'? How come we don't have and 'Mozart/Beethoven' concertos or quartets?

Peter
02-18-2001, 08:13 PM
That's interesting Rod - I wasn't actually doubting you, I was just curious.

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'Man know thyself'

Suzie
02-18-2001, 09:20 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by PDG:
[B] Suzie,

I`ve been so busy that I missed out on the earlier group hug. Can I have mine now please?

Well of course you can!

In my absence, it`s good to see that the old place hasn`t changed a bit! I am polishing my crash helmet in preparation for my full return to the fray in a few days.

And maybe a big bottle of wine, or is that the problem around here?

God bless us, every one http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Mako
02-19-2001, 02:40 PM
I once heard a quote about Mahler by a famous composer I've now forgotten. I went something along the lines of "He has moments of pure genius..surrounded by hours of absolute rubbish." Or was that Wagner. I don't know, neither have anything close to the abundant genius of the Master, L.v.Beethoven!! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Peter
02-19-2001, 05:52 PM
I think the quote you are referring to is by Rossini with regard to Wagner - I think he said something along the lines of 'the most wonderful 15 mins and the most boring 3/4 of an hour' or words to that effect.

Am I right in thinking Beethoven admired Rossini's 'William Tell' ?

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
02-19-2001, 07:00 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

I think the quote you are referring to is by Rossini with regard to Wagner - I think he said something along the lines of 'the most wonderful 15 mins and the most boring 3/4 of an hour' or words to that effect.

Am I right in thinking Beethoven admired Rossini's 'William Tell' ?




Who ever said it, I would say this ratio of 'wonderful' to boring with Wagner sums things up fairly accurately. Too much is made of too little from this man in my opinion.

I know B said something one could construe as complimentary about the Barber of Saville.


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 02-19-2001).]

Michael
02-19-2001, 07:52 PM
Originally posted by Rod:
[
I know B said something one could construe as complimentary about the Barber of Saville.

[/B]

Rossini once visited Beethoven and B did compliment him on the "Barber". He said: "I read it with great interest." Rossini, in writing about his visit, remarked that in Beethoven's lodgings there was a hole in the roof. He said (and I'm just quoting from memory): "There was I, Rossini, a successful and wealthy composer and there was this giant with a hole in his roof."
Of course, Rossini later remarked that the Ninth Symphony "lacked charm except for the scherzo."
Beethoven's remark about Rossini was more apt. He said a good kick in the arse would have turned him into a great composer.

Michael

Peter
02-19-2001, 11:05 PM
I've also read somewhere that B was a little envious of Rossini's ability to churn out an opera a week (virtually!) and make a fortune into the bargain. It may have been Schindler who made that observation, can't remember !

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'Man know thyself'

Peter
02-19-2001, 11:08 PM
Originally posted by Rod:

I know B said something one could construe as complimentary about the Barber of Saville.



Do you disagree ?

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'Man know thyself'

Rod
02-20-2001, 11:17 AM
Originally posted by Peter:

I've also read somewhere that B was a little envious of Rossini's ability to churn out an opera a week (virtually!) and make a fortune into the bargain. It may have been Schindler who made that observation, can't remember !


I think the observation came from B himself. But how many of Rossini's scripts would have been acceptable to Beethoven! I suggest B would have been even more impressed with Handel's similar speed of production, considering the superior quality of H's efforts.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
02-20-2001, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Peter:
Do you disagree ?


I haven't heard enough of it to pass judgement. I think Beethoven allowed the Itanians their niche without begrudgement, he said the Italian temprement did not suit 'opera seria'.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
02-21-2001, 11:10 PM
Originally posted by Peter:

I think the quote you are referring to is by Rossini with regard to Wagner - I think he said something along the lines of 'the most wonderful 15 mins and the most boring 3/4 of an hour' or words to that effect.
Am I right in thinking Beethoven admired Rossini's 'William Tell' ?


This is interesting if true, because I used to think that the main theme of the finale of the trio, op.1 no.2, was a re-write of the William Tell overture, until I worked out that Beethoven`s finale was written before the overture!

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Peter (PDG)

Michael
02-22-2001, 01:32 AM
Originally posted by PDG:
This is interesting if true, because I used to think that the main theme of the finale of the trio, op.1 no.2, was a re-write of the William Tell overture, until I worked out that Beethoven`s finale was written before the overture!



You're dead right, Peter. I always noticed the resemblance.
Going completely haywire for a moment, has anybody noticed the "Gone with the Wind" theme in the middle of the slow movement of the Cello Sonata, Opus 102 No. 2 ?

Michael

Peter
02-22-2001, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by Michael:
You're dead right, Peter. I always noticed the resemblance.
Going completely haywire for a moment, has anybody noticed the "Gone with the Wind" theme in the middle of the slow movement of the Cello Sonata, Opus 102 No. 2 ?

Michael


This is confusing - which Peter are you talking to ? I've noticed a similarity between 'Gone with the Wind' and the slow movemnet of Elgar's 2nd Symphony - anyone else ?




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'Man know thyself'

Michael
02-22-2001, 07:21 PM
Sorry - it was PDG I should have been replying to. I got confused between the two Peters.
I was referring to resemblances between pieces of music. The second movement of B's last cello sonata is in ternary form, and just as the flowing middle section comes to an end and before it returns to the opening theme, you can distinctly hear the piano playing the opening bar of Max Steiner's "Gone with the Wind" theme (or maybe it's just me). If both composers were still alive, Steiner should sue.

Michael

[This message has been edited by Michael (edited 02-22-2001).]