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euphony131
12-04-2000, 05:31 AM
To all B. enthusiasts,

This is a call for help and advice on bringing to life a longtime dream of mine -- a gala-packed, pull-out-all-stops Beethoven concert.

My idea is simple -- to apply the "effects" normally used in Pop music to a Beethoven concert thus appealing to and winning over a whole new generation of fans, effectively ushering Ludwig into the 21st century. In the same vein that Hollywood modernized Shakespeare into films (ex. -- Romeo & Juliet, Richard III, Titus) that introduced the Bard to young people everywhere.

Personally I feel that ultra-conservative pedants have mired the potential growth and success of Classical Music. How long must we hold onto presumed notions of "tradition" and "exclusiveness" which only drives lay-people away? I want to create a concert that will be so visually intoxicating that even people who'd never bother to listen to B. will HAVE to listen. So many people bring misconceptions and prejudice to Classical Music (ex. -- it's "boring", it's "dead", etc.). I want to smash these stereotypes. I want to see Classical Music brought to the mainstream, to be given the universal acceptance it deserves.

For the sake of brevity, let me say that I see a concert that utilizes every bit of modernity available to us: smoke machines, podium dancers (a lot of passages in B symphonies could be easily choreographed to), strobe lights, computer-generated effects, a 40ft wall screen displaying closeups of players and conductor, lasers, and etc....

I'd also want to expand the size of the typical orchestra from 50 odd plays to more than 120. With today's high-level of musicianship and vastly improved instruments, there's no reason not go for more dynamic range (Berlioz was on to something there). After all, everything today is Bigger and Louder than it was in B's time. I'm sure he would have approved.

Let's not forget that B was all for reaching the "masses." Classical music as it is today is simply not reaching those "masses." It's a sham that pseudo-talents like Britney Spears & Marilyn Manson can get world-wide adulation while soul-enriching music is constantly passed over. There's no reason for it to HAVE to be this way.

I also see outfitting orchestral players with fashionably "mod" clothing plus a female conductor with the sex appeal to appeal. If it worked for so many bland pop talents than surely there's nothing wrong with a classically-trained femme fatale? Of course, there'd be no synthesizers or electronic instruments or amplifiers. The Integrity of the sound will remain, only the "effects" surrounding it will be enhanced.

I'd also like an emcee to announce the Italian markings of each movement and the English translation after it thereby "educating" the audience. Applause will be permitted after EVERY movement (just like in B's time!), and there'll be opportunities for individual improvisation and encores (again, just like in B's time!). It might also be great to do the Ninth symphony in ENGLISH.

Ultimately -- and this will no doubt shock "purists" -- I see "groupies" going wild and trying to rush the stage, women throwing lingerie, the whole nine yards! If pop music with all its hollowness can make fans swoon than I see nothing wrong with genuine talent -- like a violin virtuoso -- basking in the limelight. Why shouldn't they get theirs?

Here's a taste of what I envision -- a stunning shower of ethereal light, confetti strewn from the ceiling and an emcee urging the audience to hug one another at the conclusion of B's Ninth; all this while a 40 ft wall screen shows faces from around the world under the banner -- "We Are All One." Basically, it's going to be one Helluva Show. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Frankly, I don't know why nobody has ever thought of presenting classical music in this way, in a "dynamic, appeal to the masses" setting. Being young, I can tell you right now that many teenagers and young adults who'd never otherwise go to a Classical concert would definitely go to something staged in this way.

Why must Classical concert audiences resemble a retirement community? Why can't Classical Music be "dressed up" in the same way that pop music is in order to sell and appeal? Sure, there is also a need for the "austere, traditional" setting, but who will attract the millions of young people who deny themselves needlessly? What about the potential revenue and acceptance?

I've many more ideas on how such a thing could be staged and choreographed, and am currently trying to outline a feasible business plan. Of course I'm not going to kid myself, something like this will potentially cost into the millions. Not to mention the adverstising "blitzkeirg" that will be necessary to make it a success.

One thing that can cut costs is that such a "Beethoven Tour" could use the existing orchestras in each city it tours. Also, some overhead can be reduced by selling Beethoven-related paraphanalia, ex. -- caps, shirts, CDs, books, etc. at each concert.

Once such a concert tour gathers momentum I sincerely believe nothing can stop it. The time is ripe for such a happening. A growing number of people feel that pop music is beginning to burn itself out, rehashing the same tunes, copying one another over and over.

Utter disaffection will only take people so far -- can salvation really be in the form of gangsta rap and Sex Pistols? I think alot of people are secretly dying inside for truly challenging and uplifting music. Let's show them the way out!

To be honest, I've never tried my hand at such promotion so could use all the advise I can get -- how to get started, the practicals, the flat-out feasibility of it all.

I will say that I am not rich, I'm not even marginally well-off to tell you the truth, but this year my love for the maestro took me to Vienna and since visiting his tombstone I felt I should do all I can before calling it quits.

Should I just start writing letters to concert promotors or Philharmonic directors? How can such a thing materialize? Or is this really just a hopeless cause? Is anyone else out there interested in such a venture?

I think you all for your time and for hearing out this plea.

Very Sincerely,
A Beethoven Lover

Peter
12-04-2000, 07:50 AM
Well that's certainly a heart-felt and passionate statement !

There is indeed a huge image problem with classical music - (just take the Vienna Philharmonic and its all male policy as an example). I'm not sure what the answer is though - do we really want to go down the same trashy commercial road of pop ? - isn't it sad that that is necessary ? - can you imagine pop without the videos, without the effects,the electronics,and sung not by sexy guys and girls, but by bald old men without any microphones! I think pop would die tomorrow !
This is the real problem ; pop is about sex and sex sells.In fact junk is always more popular than quality - just take Mcdonalds. We live in a junk culture that craves more violent films, and seemingly lower and lower standards in just about everything - it seems to me that there is a mass hypnotism whereby peoples' senses are being gradually eroded and numbed - the results are all too plain to see with spiralling crime and attrocities every day.

In Beethoven we have first rate , super-rate music - the greatest music in the world, yet the majority are not interested - how to solve the problem, I really don't know - (education is one way, which is why I've set up this site) but I'm not convinced that your special effects would do it. I am convinced that most people prefer rubbish and there is little that can be done about it - It's a bit like global warming ! I hope I'm wrong but I think the evidence supports me.

To me Beethoven and Classical music are of a spiritual nature , whereas pop is very much on the material plane - with the decline in spiritual values in society, I think there is a real problem that is hard to reconcile.
I wish you luck with your endeavours and admire your attempts to change things.

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'Man know thyself'



[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-04-2000).]

Rod
12-04-2000, 10:38 AM
Originally posted by euphony131:
To all B. enthusiasts,

This is a call for help and advice on bringing to life a longtime dream of mine -- a gala-packed, pull-out-all-stops Beethoven concert.

My idea is simple -- to apply the "effects" normally used in Pop music to a Beethoven concert thus appealing to and winning over a whole new generation of fans, effectively ushering Ludwig into the 21st century....



To a certain, perhaps large, extent what you are suggesting has already been done. Fat tenors singing popular stuff with no elitist trappings in a park through a PA system with video screens etc..etc. then the CD is released and becomes a best seller. But this is not what I want at all from classical music. Pavarotti et al can shove it as far as I am concerned. I will get all this and more at the AC/DC concert I am going to tonight! With regard to Beethoven alone, the music as performed in the post-war manner makes it sound utterly old-fashioned and utterly drab - old man's music, as I have heard it called, and can't really argue with. Got to a period instrument concert and you won't be worried about big screens, so 'electric' is the sensation! Until this post war legacy has totally died out the element of lameness will still exist in the classical world. All you need are some articulate people with some fire in their bones, and the right instruments. Those who are then still not impressed will never be impressed. I have never worried about converting the masses, but if someone comes here I will tell them something. The truth as it relates to me is that the industry produces a load of crap which will never benefit from my pennies, but replacing it with more misguided crap is not the solution.

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

~Leslie
12-04-2000, 11:47 AM
Over twenty years ago, (I am dating myself here) I attended a performance at a well known planetarium in New York, where Virgil Fox performed Bach on a full size Pipe Organ.

Throughout the entire performance, there was a light show display, that turned the concert into a audiovisual extravaganza.

Mr. Fox spoke briefly before each piece,
educating the audience (a multi-aged group) with anecdotes about Bach. He played such soaring giants
as Toccota & Fugue in D minor and the Passacaglia & Fugue in C minor.

The fact that I can recall this heady experience after so many years in detail
speaks volumes about it's effect and impact on me.

I too, am turned off by the so called commercial efforts of watching Luciano Pavarotti team up with pop singers and artists,
those kind of collaborations do absolutely nothing for my senses.

Disney addressed this audiovisual medium with the animated movie "Fantasia", in an attempt to educate children in the classical realm by invoking memorable images and storylines in connection with the music.
By doing so, I would have to say their effort was a success, and because of this film, untold generations of children recognize the music when heard, as it triggers those visual associations.

I strongly feel that in the case where support for classical music is now in a sad steady decline, that any conceptual approach to attract new audiences is necessary, dare I say mandatory, for it's survival, to ensure exposure to future generations, as well as to support working performers in their art. ~

Peter
12-04-2000, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:

Disney addressed this audiovisual medium with the animated movie "Fantasia", in an attempt to educate children in the classical realm by invoking memorable images and storylines in connection with the music.
By doing so, I would have to say their effort was a success, and because of this film, untold generations of children recognize the music when heard, as it triggers those visual associations.

I strongly feel that in the case where support for classical music is now in a sad steady decline, that any conceptual approach to attract new audiences is necessary, dare I say mandatory, for it's survival, to ensure exposure to future generations, as well as to support working performers in their art. ~

You are right Leslie - Fantasia was a tremendous example of how it can be done - Euphony131 is right also to make the case that something needs to be done, I just feel that to go down the pop road is not the right way - Some 3rd way needs to be found.

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'Man know thyself'

Serge
12-05-2000, 03:05 PM
Euphony131, I am behind you 100%!! You have described a situation that I've always imagined and hoped for, but figured would never occur. If you are really planning something like this, give me a call: (Canada's overseas code)+ 1-519-760-1770. I am completely serious about this, Euphony; I want to make this happen.

Purists will decry this idea, of course. Classical music derives its identity from the fact it ISN'T pop music in form, ideals, or method of dissemination. It is 'elite' music, and should thus remain.

However, I feel this could be to regressive. C.m.'s reputation needs a facelift. To imagine, as you have, Euphony, a concert that uses the best of what draws pop music fans out (visuals and sexy stars) to reintroduce a sleeping public to a music genre that has survived better than any rock group ever has or ever will, is risky, but refreshingly 'modern'. Having grown up around pop (and yet somehow resisting it) makes me acutely aware of the importance in our society of 'entertainment'. We are indeed a society of entertainment. Adolescents today want nothing more than to look sexy or sharp, read about their peers' crises in their pulp magazines, fantasize about their favorite singers, and get laid. These people are going to be the worst example of narrowmindedness and vapid consumerism we'll ever see. And the sad truth is, if you want to make a difference, you'll need to do it THEIR way or they'll never pay it any mind. Want to make classical music popular again? Popular enough for general interest magazines to talk about it? Popular enough to make it into the Billboard charts? Then maybe, just maybe, Euphony is on the right track.

Classical music is the neglected middle child of the music world. But why? Most people find c.m. too boring to care. Most people don't wish to spend the years it takes to get a good grounding in the vast world of c.m. scholarship. For most people, learning classical music will be like learning a foreign language, and in this multitasking world of ours, who wants to spend the time on it?
However, make c.m. appealing to short attention spans, and suddenly, you may see many more people realize that:
-c.m. is exciting to watch. A 100-pc. orchestra in perfect sync, each instrument palying against the other in harmony and in tandem... seeing an orchestra perform is akin to seeing good choreography.
-c.m. is loud. Choose your pieces properly, and c.m. can be a better rush than a Backstreet Boys concert to a screaming 14-yr. old.
-c.m. can be sexy. Sad as it is to some, our civilization runs on sex. Sex and sex appeal drives culture, attitudes, and even the economy. To make its mark now, c.m. needs to be in-your-face and it must be slightly sexual. I do not mean G-strings and slutty poses, but I refer to slinky black dresses and tasteful hair. Think Maybelline or Oil of Olay ads. Sophisticated, yet sensual. I would love to see a new image of classical music as sophisticated, yet sexy. Associate c.m. with upwardly-mobile twenty-somethings who wear Calvin Klein or Tommy Hilfiger, drink Starbucks, buy organic vegetables, drive sleek cars with understated sensual lines like mid-range Lexus or Honda Accords, read newspapers, discuss philosophy, speak with pop-culture savvy like the characters do in many of our prime-time viewing options, and who, generally, have their act together.
By now, some of you may be recoiling in horror at my suggestion that only 'successful' young people are like this. Well, let me assure you that whether or not it is how people really are like, it is what many people ASPIRE to. Our culture has conditioned us to be selective in what we buy, say, or do, and if you want to integrate a 'foreign' concept like c.m. into it, you must abide by the rules.

Hence...

An all-out Beethoven concert must be loud. No room for quiet, introspective works. Not one. You can't afford to let people get bored.
The concert must have an association. One should be able to go to this and claim it reflects their way of life (to a degree). Brand-name sponsorship will help. A partial dress-code (fashionably casual) will help. A famous or popular bartender will help things along very well during intermission.
The orchestra should be fairly young in age (think Berliner Phil.) and emanating a sense of vitality. The conductor should be young, attractive, and, if female, appearing as if she'd just come from a Gucci photo shoot. If the show is choreographed, that will help bring the audience out.
Above all, should this imaginary show occur, it needs to be ADVERTISED properly. This will make or break the concert. Hire a hip, edgy ad agency to come up with a commercial or visual ad that reflects modern young culture in an otherwise stodgy musical genre.
Then sit back and watch the rebirth of Beethoven unfold before your very eyes!

Okay, so some of this is tongue-in-cheek. Most of this, though, I am certain will be requisite to earn a following among the younger generation (who, of course, we're trying to win over). Euphony, if you're really attempting this, I'd love to help.

euphony131
12-06-2000, 12:08 AM
Serge! That's it! Exactly! The Beethoven World Tour has to be a 100% adrenaline show in order to wake up apathetic, C.M. haters
and eradicate the "boring, decrepit" stereotypes associated with C.M. Boy, oh boy! Are we like speaking the same language or what!?

I will call you. BTW, I sent you an email with my phone #, my own email address is kim001@mail.com. I look forward to speaking with you and I really hope there might be some way to make all this a reality.

Chris
12-06-2000, 03:14 AM
Even if you make this happen, what then? You have gotten people to attend based on sex and other such nonsense. That may be fine, but that's why they came, not for the music. To assume that they will like the music once they have been exposed to it does not follow. They aren't liking the music. I think the only way for people to really get interested in classical music is to expose them to it at a young age. Music in schools, and all that. I don't think there is a quick fix for this. Well, good luck anyway!

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 12-05-2000).]

Peter
12-06-2000, 05:09 AM
Originally posted by Serge:
Want to make classical music popular again? Popular enough for general interest magazines to talk about it? Popular enough to make it into the Billboard charts? Then maybe, just maybe, Euphony is on the right track.

An all-out Beethoven concert must be loud. No room for quiet, introspective works. Not one. You can't afford to let people get bored.
.

I'm sorry I disagree - I think you are attempting the impossible - it would be like turning a beautiful valley into a theme park or Vienna into Ibiza - yes you may attract more people - but as Chris says they would not be coming for the music . It would be a novelty that young people would very soon tire of - just as they tire of pop stars after a few hits.
You already have Classical musicians trying to present a more glamorous image - e.g Vanessa Mae and quite a few opera stars.


------------------
'Man know thyself'

euphony131
12-06-2000, 08:26 AM
QUOTE]Originally posted by Peter:
It would be a novelty that young people would very soon tire of - just as they tire of pop stars after a few hits.

[/QUOTE]


I hear what you're saying and appreciate everyone's feedback.

Still, one doesn't know what will happen till it happens. After all, pop music stars come and go because their music was never substantial to begin with; all things superficial can only be ephemeral in the long-run -- I think we'd all agree on that.

But this is BEETHOVEN'S music that's going to be put on center-stage and that alone I feel can make a LASTING difference. Yes, the young people will INITIALLY come for the novelty of it, but I think once they take the music into their hearts we might just see a "rebirth" of Classical Music. Perhaps they'll shake their heads in awe and wonder, "Where's this music been all my life?"

Understand that the "effects" and "choregraphy" and etc. are only there to help dispel the prejudices and misconceptions of young people, to aid them in opening their minds and giving the music a chance. I think once they give it that chance, they just might see the world in a different light....

Growing up as a Beethoven lover, I can tell you that most of my adolescent peers seem to hate Classical Music only out of spite, without giving it an honest listen. They seem always to fall victim to Peer-Pressure and the influences of Mass Media, MTV, etc. Thus they can't/won't bother to listen, REALLY listen to Classical Music.

It's analogous to a racist who has this distorted idea of a certain ethnic group as being all "criminals" so even if he meets the most humane and kind member of that race he can not stop thinking negatively about that person. So it is that many people can not listen to C.M. without some residual, misconceived "hatred" or more specifically that the music is only for "pansies," and "nerds."

This is my basis for the most "Awesome," "Intoxicating" Beethoven concert -- it can make the idea of listening to C.M. as something "hip," "cool," and dare I say -- "acceptable?" Only in this way I think will we ever touch the masses, make them lower their resistance and give the music a chance. They must first be convinced that the music is not "decrepit" and "boring." That it can be as exciting -- even more exciting -- than any drab, rehashed pop tune.

Well, looks like me and Serge are going to try and knock out a plan for all this. I invite anyone who wants to join us, we could use all the help we can! In the interim, I hope more people will voice their thoughts. And I'll look forward to hearing more from both you and Chris.

Bye for now...

~Leslie
12-06-2000, 12:26 PM
BTW, I also wanted to add an outdoor concert concept I attended several years in a row in Riverfront Park, in Spokane, Washington. It consisted of Handel's Water Musik and Royal Fireworks, and featured ......fireworks.

However, the catch 22 was that it was free, and this attracted a hodgepodge of ppl, from loud swearing thugs on skateboards who detracted from the ambiance, to ppl with strollers, listening politely while sitting on blankets and in chairs.
Quite a contrast. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif

Michael
12-06-2000, 04:42 PM
Originally posted by Chris:
Even if you make this happen, what then? You have gotten people to attend based on sex and other such nonsense. That may be fine, but that's why they came, not for the music. To assume that they will like the music once they have been exposed to it does not follow. They aren't liking the music. I think the only way for people to really get interested in classical music is to expose them to it at a young age. Music in schools, and all that. I don't think there is a quick fix for this. Well, good luck anyway!

[This message has been edited by Chris (edited 12-05-2000).]


I think Chris is right. Much as we would like it to be otherwise, there is no easy way into classical music, unless you are fortunate enough to have been exposed to it at a very early age.
All sorts of gimmicks have been tried down through the years. Back in 1970, pop versions of the "Ode to Joy" and Mozart's 40th became big hits and I became convinced that this was the big breakthrough but nope! Gary Glitter and Co. made a much bigger impression on the "music" world.
A few orchestras have tried the informal approach in the past ten years or so but their efforts came to naught. The problem is that, behind all the fireworks and the fancy clothes, you have to listen to the music, you have to give time to the music - and time and attention are becoming scarce commodities in today's world.
I consider myself very lucky to have been introduced to Beethoven as long ago as 1968, when all I had in the way of distraction was a telly with one channel. I put the Pastoral Symphony on my Dansette - and my reaction was immediate! I had never heard such boring, repetitious crap in my whole life. Vast stretches of the first movement seemed to go "dump-diddlee-ump-bump" ad nauseum. But I had enough sense to give the music a fair try - so I kept it going in the background while I read. A month later, I was running around raving about this promising new composer I had discovered. I then rushed out and bought the "Eroica" and got a hell of a shock. Was this the same guy? Patience again prevailed and I eventually realised that Beethoven is not one composer but ten!
I'm going off the point a bit, but I'll just say again: You have to listen - and listen. Even if, at first, you actively dislike what you are hearing - give it a second or a third chance.
When I say "you" I am not preaching to any contributors to this forum, who have much better ears than I have, but to the multitude who are scared of this music. But what's the point? They will not be logging onto this website anyway.

Michael

Serge
12-06-2000, 04:43 PM
My fervor over Euphony's idea is being well-tempered by more "rational" qualms. To be objective as possible, it is likely this project will never get off the ground. It is a very brash idea to be sure, but it could very well work as well. I'm still quite young, and I still try to look at the world with optimistic eyes.
There have indeed been various attempts over the past few years to introduce a sort of pop mentality into c.m., whether thru crossover recordings, dolled-up soloists, or use of c.m. in popular media (movies and tv). These attempts rate with varying success, but it is still clear there is no evident shift in the age or composition in the c.m. demographic. When I go into HMV in Toronto where the whole third floor is nothing but classical and some jazz, I am virtually assured I'll be the only 21-yr. old there. People the age of my parents are always in there, but hardly anyone younger than they. C.m. is still alive among them, but I wouldn't be surprised to see the status of c.m. fall to levels equivalent to a cult or extremely narrow group in the future once these people retire or die-- much in the same way all the talk here in Canada of Quebec seceding will eventually die down once all the old separatists retire and give up the ghost.

None of us should be irrational about the idea of Beethoven kickstarting his popularity among the youthful conspicuously-savvy demographic (as marketers see them). It'll be a very hard task to accomplish, and it is likely that once this 'tour' is over, there will be nothing left but some fond memories, large debts owing, and a c.m. public with hardly any more converts.

Or... it is possible that such a tour would start some sort of dialogue among the adolescents of the world who say that while they don't actively listen to c.m. they don't mind hearing it whenever it comes around. I sometimes get the idea that c.m. is tolerable to many younger people even though they'd never actively pursue it as a hobby or fascination. Perhaps a Beethoven tour would ignite a passion for c.m. Perhaps not.

No matter what we suppose here, of course, there is no doubt Beethoven lovers could stand to include a few more among their ranks. If such a flamboyant production like Euphony's isn't feasible to draw some quick support to c.m., what would be? I don't really want to wait for generations to pass before c.m. enjoys a rebirth.

I'll divert a little to say here that there are the few ever-hopeful signs that slow change may be in the works: soloists who project a more 'sexual' appeal, concerts and recordings that get sponsored by outside businesses, crossover artists like Charlotte Church, Chick Corea, and Sarah Brightman who draw people into c.m. from the fringes of what is actually considered c.m, and thoughtful endeavors in packaging and presenting c.m.

On this last point, you may know I am very fond of Sony Classical at the moment. They don't put out a very large number of "classical" recordings (preferring to focus on soundtracks and crossover, it seems), but every album that has come out under their label in the past three years has been sumptuously recorded and presented with beautiful full-color photography, refreshingly-different poses and portraits for the soloists and informed info in the liner notes. As a designer-in-training, I find that sort of effort extremely gratifying. When you look at a CD by Sony Classical, you do see quality. In a world where sizzle will often sell the steak, Sony is doing things very well. I hope they keep it up.

Of course, all these above 'advancements' rely on the operative word "slow". Fundamental change is a slow go, usually, yet the hope that there is actually a substantial part of the population out there who harbors innate appreciation for the sound of Beethoven is what keeps me excited about Euphony's idea. There has never been a poll done about the level of enjoyment of c.m. among youth. We may well be sitting on a powderkeg of c.m. appreciation waiting to explode because young people don't yet know how c.m. could be presented to the world!

The cheapening of c.m. thanks to the Beethoven tour as suggested by respondents here is very valid. To associate c.m. with people like Madonna or Britney.. perish the thought! Concerts by Madonna may be seen as some as concerts performed by a slut, but such imagery is often due to the actions of the star outside of the music (e.g., M.'s latest kid was thanks to her personal trainer). But I'd say hardly anyone thinks Celine Dion is a trashy star. Her concerts are sophisticated (so I hear) and she is the model of class and sensuousness.
Since no one will assume much of Beethoven before this tour occurs, most people should ideally be receptive to the idea that B. can be fun. Most young people, whether they'll admit it or not, are amazingly-easily led by what they see. If they see Beethoven performed by young, attractive people among enticing visuals, they may well want to emulate them. New stars could be born. People who play instruments may start thinking of themselves in a whole new light. An entire new kind of fan base may grow. And anyone who secretly enjoyed c.m. but didn't tell anyone may have the 'courage' to come out with it and display it proudly. Unless we try, we'll never know, right? I think it's worth consideration.

Rod
12-06-2000, 04:47 PM
Originally posted by Michael:

I put the Pastoral Symphony on my Dansette - and my reaction was immediate! I had never heard such boring, repetitious crap in my whole life. Vast stretches of the first movement seemed to go "dump-diddlee-ump-bump" ad nauseum.



This is interesting, for I, after 15 years of listening to various renditions of the 'Pastoral' regard most of these renditions as "dump-diddlee-ump-bump" music, so lame and uninspired is their inspiration!!

Rod

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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Peter
12-06-2000, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by Serge:
If they see Beethoven performed by young, attractive people among enticing visuals, they may well want to emulate them. New stars could be born. People who play instruments may start thinking of themselves in a whole new light. An entire new kind of fan base may grow. And anyone who secretly enjoyed c.m. but didn't tell anyone may have the 'courage' to come out with it and display it proudly. Unless we try, we'll never know, right? I think it's worth consideration.

I think this is the point - what needs changing is the image - most young people think of c.m as music for the old - We live in a televisual age and performers need to cotton on to this fact - most come across as dreary politicians - change this and I think you'll make an impact.Unfortunately a lot of performers don't actually look as though they are enjoying themselves, and I hate to say it, but a lot of them do look damn weird ! No need to go down the ghastly trashy pop road - just get some better looking,younger performers for tv work - it doesn't matter what they look like in a recording studio!

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'Man know thyself'

PDG
12-06-2000, 07:36 PM
The idea of a huge Beethoven event is a fantastic one, and Euphony`s enthusiasm, touchingly borne out of his visit to the master`s grave, is to be admired; depressingly though, I can only agree with what Peter and Michael have said.

The biggest problem would surely be getting the thing off the ground - the financial backing required would be colossal, millions of dollars in the case of touring with the project. Backers would (as backers do) consider the viability of the concept, its SALEABILITY, potential merchandising, global media interest, etc.; and in all areas bar media interest, I don`t see them looking at the idea as a winning one.

The whole idea is to get people (not just the young - if parents become hooked, the kids will pick it up from them) interested in Beethoven, but sadly, he is too far removed from the real world for most people; we don`t even have a photo of him, just (as they would be perceived) old, musky paintings of a grumpy-looking, deaf, old man. So the `image` of this event would be focused on the performers rather than the music - they would be the centre of attention, at the expense of the music.

As far as the music is concerned, I completely agree with what has already been said, namely that in this frenetically-paced world of ours, people have neither the inclination, nor the attention span, to give it a chance. Most people don`t have the concentration levels, anyway; and if concentration were not needed with the great classical music, then it wouldn`t be `great`.

Perhaps a better idea might be a musical based on Beethoven; but, even then, the setting-up and running costs would be huge. I think this idea is more feasible than an all-encompassing tour - when one considers the money made by the bilge that Lloyd Webber inflicts on us, I think a Beethoven musical would definitely succeed. Although musicals-attending crowds are generally cliquey, they are not as far removed from the musical thought processes of the public as are classical music lovers, and this `bridging` idea, if you like, taking classical music down a few intellectual steps, while keeping it LEAGUES above the abysmal level of pop music, might just be the `third way`, mentioned earlier, by Peter.

However things pan out, Euphony and Serge, the very best of luck; if it doesn`t work out, we will still applaud you.

God speed.

Peter
12-07-2000, 04:39 AM
Originally posted by PDG:
we don`t even have a photo of him, just (as they would be perceived) old, musky paintings of a grumpy-looking, deaf, old man.


Perhaps a better idea might be a musical based on Beethoven; but, even then, the setting-up and running costs would be huge. I think this idea is more feasible than an all-encompassing tour - when one considers the money made by the bilge that Lloyd Webber inflicts on us, I think a Beethoven musical would definitely succeed. Although musicals-attending crowds are generally cliquey, they are not as far removed from the musical thought processes of the public as are classical music lovers, and this `bridging` idea, if you like, taking classical music down a few intellectual steps, while keeping it LEAGUES above the abysmal level of pop music, might just be the `third way`, mentioned earlier, by Peter.



The image of Beethoven's appearance in most peoples minds (if they have an image at all) is from his late years with wild unkempt hair, which is why on the home page of this site I chose a picture of him as a young man in which he actually looks attractive. I bet many young people have been surprised that he was actually young once !

The musical idea, I think is a good one, as was the play and film Amadeus for Mozart. Anyone who has read my comments on the film 'Immortal beloved' will hopefully appreciate after reading this thread why I was so against it (apart from being factually flawed) - It failed in its main purpose to attract young people to Beethoven's music because it simply reinforced the stereo types of a miserable old man.

Euphony and Serge I suggest what would really help would be a first class Beethoven film - I know John Suchet is enthusiastic about this also (though he wants his brother David Suchet of Poirot fame to play Beethoven !). The film would need to show the whole of B's life not just the last years as in I.B. - You need a first class cast and above all you need humour - there must be moments of light relief in a serious film - Amadeus recognised this. There are many highly amusing events in B's life which should be shown - this gives a balance to the tragic events in his life and will make the man , the film and consequently his music far more appealing. It must also be as factual as possible - we don't want the film's credibility destroyed by a load of totally fictitious events.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

[This message has been edited by Peter (edited 12-06-2000).]

Serge
12-08-2000, 01:05 AM
You may be onto something, Peter! Worthy of consideration.

euphony131
01-09-2001, 08:07 AM
Hi all,

I wanted to give an update thus far on my plans for The Beethoven World Tour. I have submitted my proposal to Ira Brilliant of "Beethoven's Hair" fame and founder of the American Beethoven Society. I have contacted a Profession Production Company with experience in staging and marketing such lavish shows. The man I spoke to was in fact very excited at the idea and seemed to think it would be a dream project: "No one's ever done anything like it before!" All the young people (25 and younger) I have spoken to have expressed enthusiasm for such a "rad" show: "Now that's a classical concert I'll go see!"

The truth of the matter is that Classical Music as a Recording industry is facing obliteration. According to the latest stats, new releases of symphonic works in America struggle to achieve even 1,000 sales in a year. Meanwhile, "stars" like Madonna and Marilyn Manson can sell over a million copies in ONE WEEK. Even illustrious conductors like John Elliot Gardiner, Bernard Haitink and Andre Previn find themselves without contracts. No recording company including DG, EMI and Sony Classics wants to sign them -- their records don't sell. And the cutbacks are increasing exponentially -- EMI now releases only 35 new classical recordings a year; they used to release 120.

It would not be an exaggeration to say Classical Recordings will become extinct within 10 years time. What can possibly revert the crisis? What can change the attitudes of the young? What will finally turn Classical Music into a mainstay of public life? I truly feel only a concert such as I've described can do it. Some purists criticize the idea, that it somehow cheapens and degrades the music. I maintain, however, that desparate times call for desparate measures and so long as the music is played honestly (no electronic instruments, amplifiers, etc.) and with passion than there's nothing "horrid" about it.

We are facing extinction. Are we to do nothing at all, but stay on our solemn course hoping against hope that the End will not come? It is not a matter of lifting our haughty noses and saying "Humbug." It is simply a matter of survival at this point. I love Beethoven and this is my way of honoring him -- by bringing his music to the masses, to make others LISTEN. If it takes strobe lights and lightening bolts to do it than so be it.

We can not assume that if a 19th composer were alive today he would not use such effects for his own work. After all, has any one ever seen a Wagner opera? Talk about effects! Again, so long as the music itself is pure than all other extraneous effects should be fair game.

I will continue with this. Perhaps, a time will come when I'll have to quit, when every option has been exhausted, when NO ONE will listen. Till then I will do what I can. I'd love to hear from others about this, their thoughts, particularly from any of you orchestral players out there. And again I invite anyone who is interested and willing to join me in my venture.

Thank you all for your time! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Rod
01-09-2001, 12:02 PM
Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

The truth of the matter is that Classical Music as a Recording industry is facing obliteration. According to the latest stats, new releases of symphonic works in America struggle to achieve even 1,000 sales in a year.


Which begs the question why the hell do they continue to release these recordings? How many versions of the 5th do we need?

Originally posted by euphony131:

Meanwhile, "stars" like Madonna and Marilyn Manson can sell over a million copies in ONE WEEK. Even illustrious conductors like John Elliot Gardiner, Bernard Haitink and Andre Previn find themselves without contracts. No recording company including DG, EMI and Sony Classics wants to sign them -- their records don't sell. And the cutbacks are increasing exponentially -- EMI now releases only 35 new classical recordings a year; they used to release 120.


I wouldn't sign them either, even Gardiner.

Originally posted by euphony131:

It would not be an exaggeration to say Classical Recordings will become extinct within 10 years time. What can possibly revert the crisis? What can change the attitudes of the young? What will finally turn Classical Music into a mainstay of public life? I truly feel only a concert such as I've described can do it. Some purists criticize the idea, that it somehow cheapens and degrades the music. I maintain, however, that desparate times call for desparate measures and so long as the music is played honestly (no electronic instruments, amplifiers, etc.) and with passion than there's nothing "horrid" about it.


There's no point trying to popularise a 'high brow' past-time. Most performances are so lame they don't justify themselves anyway, shoving them through a PA would only make them even worse. I hardly ever go to concerts any more myself never mind the humble masses!

Originally posted by euphony131:

We are facing extinction. Are we to do nothing at all, but stay on our solemn course hoping against hope that the End will not come? It is not a matter of lifting our haughty noses and saying "Humbug." It is simply a matter of survival at this point. I love Beethoven and this is my way of honoring him -- by bringing his music to the masses, to make others LISTEN. If it takes strobe lights and lightening bolts to do it than so be it.


A lot of 'classical' music deserves to be extinct in my opinion, but people who have a natural tendancy to take music seriously will sooner or later take up the genre without assistance. People for whom music is not a big deal will NEVER get into Beethoven, under any circumstances.

Originally posted by euphony131:

We can not assume that if a 19th composer were alive today he would not use such effects for his own work. After all, has any one ever seen a Wagner opera? Talk about effects! Again, so long as the music itself is pure than all other extraneous effects should be fair game.


Forget Wagner, it was the Baroque opera that made the most use of effects - bizarre machinery, and all kinds of animals would find their way on stage!

Originally posted by euphony131:

I will continue with this. Perhaps, a time will come when I'll have to quit, when every option has been exhausted, when NO ONE will listen. Till then I will do what I can. I'd love to hear from others about this, their thoughts, particularly from any of you orchestral players out there. And again I invite anyone who is interested and willing to join me in my venture.

Thank you all for your time! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

I can't really understand your motivation, in fact if everyone was into Beethoven I would start to get suspicious about my own standard of taste! If you are worried about being an unemployed musician, fair enough, but if you want to be a rich one you should forget classical music and start sampling dance tracks for Madonna.

Rod



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

euphony131
01-09-2001, 02:53 PM
Rod,

With all due respect, I am flabbergasted by some of your remarks. You say we are better off without the likes of Gardiner, Haitink and Previn. Can you honestly say that Gardiner's interpretations of Bach, for instance, are without any merit? Certainly not every conductor can be on the mark every time, but those three mentioned HAVE produced some incredible recordings. Perhaps your standards are so high that no human can hope to reach them? In which case, I take it you do not listen to recordings but prefer to imagine the sound in your mind? I'm not being sarcastic, but am asking a sincere question here.

"Which begs the question why the hell do they continue to release these recordings? How many versions of the 5th do we need?"

I don't think it's just a matter of over-sampling the 5th. The dilemma pertains to ALL of classical music -- whether new, old or in between. The ENTIRE medium of Classical Music is facing extinction. The very notion of someone playing the violin or even bothering to examine a score may come to an end.

"There's no point trying to popularise a 'high brow' past-time. Most performances are so lame they don't justify themselves anyway, shoving them through a PA would only make them even worse. I hardly ever go to concerts any more myself never mind the humble masses!"

I'm sorry you can not enjoy concerts anymore, however don't you think this may be due to a lack of vigor on part of many orchestras? Lack of vigor is not the same as lack of talent. And certainly not all performers are as "lame" as you describe. What I want to do is re-introduce the "Romantic" flair of Classical Music, to give it back its rightful and impassioned charisma. Let's prove this music isn't "lame." This does not mean the use of a "PA," the sound will be PURE, only effects such as lighting and choreography will be added.

The concept is like this: say you have an original masterpiece by Matisse, something you'd want to frame in the best way possible. I simply want to provide a lavish frame so passers-bys will stop and take notice of a work of art. There is nothing wrong with the painting, it is already a masterpiece, the idea of altering it would be unthinkable. Just "frame" it correctly and you've got a whole new legion fans.

"A lot of 'classical' music deserves to be extinct in my opinion, but people who have a natural tendancy to take music seriously will sooner or later take up the genre without assistance. People for whom music is not a big deal will NEVER get into Beethoven, under any circumstances."

Sorry, but I'd argue that even a minor 19th century composer eclipses the talent of today's "pop mega-stars" and all their superficiality. If a lot of Classical Music "deserves to be extinct" than I say start with burning all those trashy Pop records first.

Now I agree that people who are not into any type of music to begin with may be less partial to a Beethoven Tour; however can you deny the number of converts created each day after seeing or hearing something (anything) spectacular? Besides the number of people who are not into Music of any kind is very small compared to those who are.

"Forget Wagner, it was the Baroque opera that made the most use of effects - bizarre machinery, and all kinds of animals would find their way on stage!"

Well, that's just more validation of using the effects I've already outlined, isn't it.

"I can't really understand your motivation, in fact if everyone was into Beethoven I would start to get suspicious about my own standard of taste! If you are worried about being an unemployed musician, fair enough, but if you want to be a rich one you should forget classical music and start sampling dance tracks for Madonna."

My motivation is not soley driven by money. Obviously if all I cared about was profit than I wouldn't have chosen Beethoven to promote. I do not worry about being an "unemployed musician," I have a job and I am not a musician. Again, this is my way of paying homage to the Maestro, by making the world take notice. I think we all have an innate desire to see our passions shared by others (at least I do). Plus I hate to see Classical Music being flushed away and forgotten. Yes, this entails the need for profits, after all how else will investors be enticed? But to say that's all I cared about is money is wholly unfair.

I think it strange you would question your own taste if a larger following of Beethoven occurred. Are you telling me you only listen to Beethoven because it is so rarefied and mysterious to most people? I feel it is this sort of "elitist" attitude that has kept Classical Music and its potential buried. Have we all became so comfortable in being marginalized? Only when the last note has been played, and the last symphony hall shuts down, only then might we realize what COULD'VE been.

Quite honestly Rod, I sense a lot of bitterness in your post. Are you perhaps a former orchestral player who was once mired by politics? Forgive my presumptousness, but please understand I only want to REVIVE what has been lost.

Peter
01-09-2001, 05:07 PM
I sympathise with your sentiments. Classical music is indeed in real danger of extinction, and it is largely this trashy pop commercialisation that is responsible - a whole generation brain-washed into a mind numbing state of non-thought, where all that is required is to be as drunk and as high as possible for maximum effect! - Most of this generation do not just dislike Classical music, they really hate it, because it requires thought. I hate to be so cynical about things, but I think I'm only stating the situation as it is - I would like to believe that your ideas really would work Euphony, but as I've said in earlier posts on this subject, I think the rot has gone too deep.
The BBC here in the UK is no help either - I can't recall the last time I saw a Beethoven performance on tv. On the rare occasions they do broadcast a 'classical' work , it's usually something guaranteed to turn people off classical music for life, such as a premiere of Harrison-Birtwhistle or Peter Maxwell Davies - No wonder people turn off in their millions! Beethoven and first rate classical music in general does not get a decent coverage, and that is where any change needs to begin.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

PDG
01-09-2001, 05:25 PM
Euphony, thanks for the update - I was about to post the enquiry. I just wanted to say keep up the good work; your enthusiasm is to be admired. I`m sure it`s okay for me to say that we are all behind you 100%, although a certain scepticism is inevitable given the grand nature of your idea.

Keep us posted http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Rod
01-10-2001, 07:07 AM
Originally posted by euphony131:
Rod,

With all due respect, I am flabbergasted by some of your remarks. You say we are better off without the likes of Gardiner, Haitink and Previn. Can you honestly say that Gardiner's interpretations of Bach, for instance, are without any merit? Certainly not every conductor can be on the mark every time, but those three mentioned HAVE produced some incredible recordings. Perhaps your standards are so high that no human can hope to reach them? In which case, I take it you do not listen to recordings but prefer to imagine the sound in your mind? I'm not being sarcastic, but am asking a sincere question here.


I don't know about his Bach recordings, but I have his Beethoven and Handel recordings. The Handel is adequate, the Beethoven Masses were promising, but with the symphonies he messed up, it was a missed opportunity and the boxed set is gathering dust at my house. He is not bad, but he is not the golden boy he's made out to be - certainly not the best 'authentic' conductor.

Originally posted by euphony131:

I don't think it's just a matter of over-sampling the 5th. The dilemma pertains to ALL of classical music -- whether new, old or in between. The ENTIRE medium of Classical Music is facing extinction. The very notion of someone playing the violin or even bothering to examine a score may come to an end.


It will survive. But the point you make about reading the score is interesting. because I would like performers of Beethoven at least to actually start doing this!

Originally posted by euphony131:

I'm sorry you can not enjoy concerts anymore, however don't you think this may be due to a lack of vigor on part of many orchestras? Lack of vigor is not the same as lack of talent. And certainly not all performers are as "lame" as you describe. What I want to do is re-introduce the "Romantic" flair of Classical Music, to give it back its rightful and impassioned charisma. Let's prove this music isn't "lame." This does not mean the use of a "PA," the sound will be PURE, only effects such as lighting and choreography will be added.


I like authentic Beethoven playing on authentic instruments, it is the existing over abundance of post-war brand romanticism that is the main problem!

Originally posted by euphony131:

The concept is like this: say you have an original masterpiece by Matisse, something you'd want to frame in the best way possible. I simply want to provide a lavish frame so passers-bys will stop and take notice of a work of art. There is nothing wrong with the painting, it is already a masterpiece, the idea of altering it would be unthinkable. Just "frame" it correctly and you've got a whole new legion fans.


Fair enough, but what are you going to do to save the chamber music? I think the solution lies more with education. In my young days all my mates wanted to play an instrument of some sort, which got them involved eventually with more serious music, but the kids don't now as pop music is no longer instrumental music in the conventional sence, which leaves only schools. My 9 year old daughter plays the recorder pretty well thanks to school lessons, and she now 'likes' Handel because he wrote alot of good recorder music (a rarity) and she tries to play along.

Originally posted by euphony131:

Sorry, but I'd argue that even a minor 19th century composer eclipses the talent of today's "pop mega-stars" and all their superficiality. If a lot of Classical Music "deserves to be extinct" than I say start with burning all those trashy Pop records first.

Now I agree that people who are not into any type of music to begin with may be less partial to a Beethoven Tour; however can you deny the number of converts created each day after seeing or hearing something (anything) spectacular? Besides the number of people who are not into Music of any kind is very small compared to those who are.


Trashing pop is not the solution, teenagers are never going to go to Beethoven raves! I bought pop but it didn't prevent me from getting into Beethoven.

Originally posted by euphony131:

"Forget Wagner, it was the Baroque opera that made the most use of effects - bizarre machinery, and all kinds of animals would find their way on stage!"

Well, that's just more validation of using the effects I've already outlined, isn't it.


And Baroque opera died a death in it's own lifetime, even Handel's masterpieces were not sufficient for audiences as tastes and culture changed. Yet they are undergoing a revival today (thanks to the authentic movement). It's the culture that needs to be change, you'll probably just have to wait for it, assisted by playing the music as it was intended to be heard and not some convenient transcription.

Originally posted by euphony131:

But to say that's all I cared about is money is wholly unfair.
I think it strange you would question your own taste if a larger following of Beethoven occurred. Are you telling me you only listen to Beethoven because it is so rarefied and mysterious to most people? I feel it is this sort of "elitist" attitude that has kept Classical Music and its potential buried. Have we all became so comfortable in being marginalized? Only when the last note has been played, and the last symphony hall shuts down, only then might we realize what COULD'VE been.


I didn't mean that I thought that you were only interested in money, but rather that the average classical performer will never be rich! My attitude is not elitist, quite the opposite, I never belittle the pop industry in relation to classical! Just todays popular culture mitigates against being interested in serious music more so than in the past, thus it would surprise me if everyone suddenly got into it today, and I would have to check that I had not latently been buying 'Garage' music.

Originally posted by euphony131:

Quite honestly Rod, I sense a lot of bitterness in your post. Are you perhaps a former orchestral player who was once mired by politics? Forgive my presumptousness, but please understand I only want to REVIVE what has been lost.


I'm a frustrated guitar player. But I am perhaps bitter because the factors which I regard to be the problem are not catered for in your solution. Not that I am actually bitter, I've never been part of the classical 'club' in the first place. 'I'd never want to join the kind of club that would have a guy like me as a member!'

Rod

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

amadeus
01-10-2001, 08:48 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Leslie:


Disney addressed this audiovisual medium with the animated movie "Fantasia", in an attempt to educate children in the classical realm by invoking memorable images and storylines in connection with the music.
By doing so, I would have to say their effort was a success, and because of this film, untold generations of children recognize the music when heard, as it triggers those visual associations.


Leslie I couldn't even begin to tell you, how right you are. In fact its pretty much my story. I'm 20 years old, started to get into classical music about 3 years ago. At the time I was probably lookin at CM as an alternative to the majority of the crap that is being produced today.(and thats being kind) But when I first started listening to Beethoven and Mozart I immediately made the connection between the music and my childhood. I've seen so many cartoons that have contained CM, that I immediately connected with the music that I heard later in life. Im saying that when I picked up the records three years ago I was like "ohh! I know this" Then knowing that I liked it once (cause I was a cartoon nut)I gave it a real opportunity to become my choice of music. Then a few hundred dollars later, and now you have an obsessed fan. Who cant seem to get enough of it. And am in the myst of trying to convert some friends, but have few takers so far.

I feel I owe a great deal for the discovery of my love for CM to Disney. Besides the waves crashing in "Fantasia" to the sounds of the fifth, with out a doubt my most recalled cartoon image in my head is portrait of Dawn with a deer in the image, the begins to rise, other wildlife awaking, all to the sounds of the very appropriate Sixth symphony. Possibly from Bambi, I dont know, I never really liked Bambi to see it more then once. And if it is, it just goes to show you how powerful that image was.

Anyway I dont think they have CM in todays cartoons nearly as much as they did. Not that I would know, gave up cartoons along time ago, but judging from the images I see while flipping through the TV I dont think it would be appropriate for the music to even be played. It wouldnt coincide with the imagery or the story. However Im not one to shy away from a big time production like Lion King, Aladdin, Price of Egypt to name a few, and in the big time productions there will usually be some CM being played. Hopefully this is reaching out to children like it did for me.

But like you pointed out before, Fantasia was the ultimate, the whole movie was sorrounded by classical music.(CM) And it was a masterpeice between the music and imagery.

~Leslie
01-10-2001, 10:36 PM
Amadeus, Nice name. I'm no longer looking at yr post now, but I think I saw a light at the end of the tunnel.........you know, the dark abyss of modern day music industry commercialism? <g>

The only reason Fantasia is fresh in my mind is because I had a child, and used that video as a tool for educational purposes.

Alas, it did no good, for all the outstanding music he heard in utero and onward, my boy still digs Limp Bisket, Korn, and Eminen.

One cartoon I distinctly remember from years ago, was one of Schubert, attempting to finish the Unfinished. It was hysterical. He lived in an apartment flat, and he couldn't concentrate because a road construction crew was making a racket below his window.

So much classical was utilized in those cartoons. Ah the good ol days. Probably because Warner didn't have to pay any royalties for them. Thanks for the stroll down memory lane. : ) ~Les

Mako
01-12-2001, 12:12 PM
Hiya all,

I totally agree that the image of cm needs to be revitalised. The first and easiest step in this process would have to be to take the concerts out of the funeral parlour, i.e. black & white suits and dresses, everyone having to be quiet for 90% of the time incase the musicians get distracted, musicians themselves forbidden to move or make a sound unless it's in the score etc. Any wonder it's seen as boring and stale.

Why do the "modern" pop concerts get so much attention? -It's visually and aurally stimulating by colour, movement and volume, -relaxed so that the audience can cheer, applaud etc when they want to, -the bands have personality and a sence of apparent rebel in them that the teenagers themselves feel they need to identify with and express within themselves.

An audio visual component in a concert would be interesting but how many classical musicians do you know of today that have the ability to concentrate when someone in the audience so much as sneezes? Until you can change that aspect of the image of cm, I'm afraid you are fighting an uphill battle.

Also where can you go to hear cm being played? Maybe a concert hall in main cities? Contrast that with rock/pop music which can be heard in almost any pub, club and arena in any town on any night of the week. Familiarity and accessability are a major component in the success of any musical genre, sport or past time I can think of.

Thanks for listening.


[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-12-2001).]

euphony131
01-12-2001, 08:42 PM
Mako,

That's exactly what I'm talking about! Stuffy stodginess is such a turn off! Especially for the Young!

I see some others stressing "education" as the key, that may be the "ideal" solution but it's far from practical. Plus it only re-enforces the "elitist" idea that one has to be super-"brainy" to enjoy Classical music.

When I first came to Beethoven at 15, I couldn't tell you what Adagio meant nor did I even know a traditional symphony contained four movements. But that didn't stop me from listening and loving every bit of it! Music after all is foremost a SENSUAL experience, not a cerebral one per se.

It's a great turn-off for the lay-person to have to "figure out" music, better to let them FEEL it first. Besides which, how many teenagers really want to bury their noses in some dry text-book or listen to some aging pedant sprout off about the differences in 2/4 meter versus 7/8? I sure as heck didn't when I was 15!

The real key I feel is to simply show the young that Classical Music -- a symphonic work -- can be just as exciting and "cool" as any rock concert. Then with their interest piqued they'll seek out more and learn about it naturally: "Wow, that Beethoven concert was radical! What other kinds of Classical is out there?!" Eventually they'll read and maybe even get into chamber works, and so on.

After all, is not Classical Music some of the most passionate music ever created? Let's try and PROJECT that passion upon the stage -- that's all I'm arguing for.

We shouldn't under-estimate the Young. They are naturally inquisitive. We need only to give them something to get curious about.

Peter
01-13-2001, 05:08 AM
Originally posted by euphony131:

The real key I feel is to simply show the young that Classical Music -- a symphonic work -- can be just as exciting and "cool" as any rock concert.

After all, is not Classical Music some of the most passionate music ever created? Let's try and PROJECT that passion upon the stage -- that's all I'm arguing for.



A Classical concert is infinitely more exciting than a rock concert! - I've been to both, but only from a Classical concert have I had that feeling of elation and over-whelming joy, which is not surprising because the music is far greater and reaches parts that no other music can!

------------------
'Man know thyself'

BP
01-13-2001, 12:33 PM
The reason for silence, Mako, is two-fold; first, the audience won't be able to concentrate on the music with people nearby gabbing about the recent things, and second being that the very quiet passages would never be heard period. If, for example, Bruckner were subjected to this treatment, half his symphony would be unheard because they're so quiet. CM is not something that can neccessarily be digested in one sitting. You must be willing to give your ears over to it. I do not believe this is an elitist attitude, anyone can do it, you don't have to be specifically educated.

The best way to solve this would be to start our own pubs or whatever, where nothing but Beethoven or CM will be played. And maybe the dress code needs to be thrown out too. Dressing differently will not change the music. But talking during a performance would just be plain bad.

BP

Mako
01-14-2001, 09:25 AM
BP,

I agree that talking about recent things etc is bad. What I meant was that people should be able to express themselves more during a concert i.e. if a solo was particularly brilliant, movement especially moving etc, we should be able to applaud, cheer what ever spontaneuosly and not wait until the whole sonata, concerto or whatever is totally over. This approach is best observed in any jazz performance you see today. I feel it would allow the audience to encourage the performer onto an even better performance when the air is not so thick as to make them so nervous.

What do you think?

Also on the topic of cm pubs etc. there is one in London (or was last time I was there) called the 'Brahms & Liszt'. At the time though there was no-one performing in the near past or future. Not sure if it has survived. Also it was as dead as an pub can get unfortunately!

[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-14-2001).]

Kevin
01-14-2001, 12:08 PM
Originally posted by Mako:
BP,

I agree that talking about recent things etc is bad. What I meant was that people should be able to express themselves more during a concert i.e. if a solo was particularly brilliant, movement especially moving etc, we should be able to applaud, cheer what ever spontaneuosly and not wait until the whole sonata, concerto or whatever is totally over. This approach is best observed in any jazz performance you see today. I feel it would allow the audience to encourage the performer onto an even better performance when the air is not so thick as to make them so nervous.

What do you think?

Also on the topic of cm pubs etc. there is one in London (or was last time I was there) called the 'Brahms & Liszt'. At the time though there was no-one performing in the near past or future. Not sure if it has survived. Also it was as dead as an pub can get unfortunately!

[This message has been edited by Mako (edited 01-14-2001).]

Mako,

Your right. Audience participation would give more spontaneity and excitement to a performance. Also, would make it interactive, which is essential in todays world. It would be closer to the way it actually was in Beethoven's day.

Kevin

Mako
01-15-2001, 09:25 AM
Thanks Kevin,

O.K. now with that change, what about doing something about the drab, stuffy black & white outfits. I understand that in Beethovens day they wore their most stylish new clothes for a concert. It wasn't until Liszt that they changed to the now mandatory penguin suits. Get someone out there in the latest Armani or whatever, see how the crowd reacts.

BP
01-15-2001, 11:41 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mako:
[B]BP,

I agree that talking about recent things etc is bad. What I meant was that people should be able to express themselves more during a concert i.e. if a solo was particularly brilliant, movement especially moving etc, we should be able to applaud, cheer what ever spontaneuosly and not wait until the whole sonata, concerto or whatever is totally over. This approach is best observed in any jazz performance you see today. I feel it would allow the audience to encourage theperformer onto an even better performance when the air is not so thick as to make them so nervous.
[QUOTE]

Well, I am glad you see that, but still, in Jazz, the music never really gets that quiet, whereas in classical, the music might be very quiet around that time. Also, the solos in a jazz number are of a totally different nature than classical solos, and it might not be appropriate, except maybe after cadenzas in the concertos.

Bob

PDG
01-15-2001, 03:09 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mako:
[B]BP,
I agree that talking about recent things etc is bad. What I meant was that people should be able to express themselves more during a concert i.e. if a solo was particularly brilliant, movement especially moving etc, we should be able to applaud, cheer what ever spontaneuosly and not wait until the whole sonata, concerto or whatever is totally over. This approach is best observed in any jazz performance you see today. I feel it would allow the audience to encourage the performer onto an even better performance when the air is not so thick as to make them so nervous.
What do you think?
Also on the topic of cm pubs etc. there is one in London (or was last time I was there) called the 'Brahms & Liszt'. At the time though there was no-one performing in the near past or future. Not sure if it has survived. Also it was as dead as an pub can get unfortunately!

Mako,

Re your London pub, it may have had nothing to do with classical music. "Brahms and Lizst" is Cockney rhyming slang for being in a state of alcohol-induced inebriation! I`ll let you work out the rhyme http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif

Michael
01-15-2001, 07:27 PM
Originally posted by PDG:


Re your London pub, it may have had nothing to do with classical music. "Brahms and Lizst" is Cockney rhyming slang for being in a state of alcohol-induced inebriation! I`ll let you work out the rhyme http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif[/B]


Nice one, PDG. It certainly would have fooled me.

Michael

~Leslie
01-16-2001, 03:48 AM
Hello everyone, I see the topic has taken a different turn towards jazz and audience participation. In a live situation, the perceptive jazz band tends to "feed off" the type of energy they get from a particular audience. In other words, an energetic talkative crowd would instill the band not to play quite as many details, as opposed giving a quieter crowd every shade and nuance.~

Mako
01-16-2001, 09:00 AM
Whilst I understand that classical music has many quiet passages, you must know that jazz does too. It is up to the audience to judge the appropriate recognition for their appreciation. At least they would be able to become more involved and immersed in the performance and be able to react accordingly instead of the stiff, stale rule that you must wait 'til the end. Just like in Beethoven's day when they erupted in a din of applause and cheers for the slow movement of the 7th symphony that he chose to follow the final movement with an encore of the slow movement again. i.e. he was able to react to the audiences appreciation.

PDG,
On the subject of the 'Brahms & Liszt', I know the cockney slang, but it really is (was) a cm pub. What better use of words to relate to the whole idea of it!

Finally, crowd involvement = crowd injoyment = return patronage. Audiences want to be involved, let them and they will keep coming back in bigger numbers than ever before.

Serge
01-16-2001, 03:14 PM
I'm afraid I don't get the rhyme. Brahms & Liszt? I pronounce it "braums and list". Doesn't sound like anything to me! Can someone elucidate?

Mako
01-17-2001, 11:40 AM
Serge,

'Brahms & Liszt' is a cockney phrase for being very intoxicated, otherwise known as pissed. I hope I didn't offend anyone http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Peter
01-17-2001, 04:44 PM
Originally posted by Mako:
Serge,

'Brahms & Liszt' is a cockney phrase for being very intoxicated, otherwise known as pissed. I hope I didn't offend anyone http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Certainly not , but mind you it is exactly the state I am in at this very precise moment !!! - I think I shall listen to Brahms 4th Symphony , guaranteed to sober anyone up ! (I think I'll save the Liszt
till tomorrow - as a pianist I feel a touch of 'Waldesrauschen' coming on) Bon nuit.

------------------
'Man know thyself'

PDG
01-18-2001, 03:58 PM
Originally posted by Peter:
Certainly not , but mind you it is exactly the state I am in at this very precise moment !!! - I think I shall listen to Brahms 4th Symphony , guaranteed to sober anyone up ! (I think I'll save the Liszt
till tomorrow - as a pianist I feel a touch of 'Waldesrauschen' coming on) Bon nuit.


Peter, it must have been thinking about your "string of exes" that drove you to it. Don`t worry, my friend, we`ve all been there. I sometimes wonder why God didn`t invent a 3rd sex (ultrafemales) to give us chaps greater choice, but then again, how could these creatures possibly surpass what He created from Adam`s rib?

Excuse me now while I dive for cover........... http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif