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Suzie
01-13-2001, 01:45 AM
On Michael's good advise, I got my hands on the movie "Beethoven's Nephew", a much better film, I think, than the overly emotional, inaccurate, chick flick, IB. It does not, as IB does, portray The Master as a drunken lunatic, but more of the curmudgeon we know him to be. Johanna is portrayed as amiable, inept and as loose as we know her to be. B's friends tolerate him as we hope they would have. The events that are accurate occur out of order and in the wrong locations, the people they occur with are not the correct people, the fellow who plays the nephew doesn't act but looks serious and pouts like a Calvin Klein ad. I didn't say I loved it.

IB is a pretty movie, Gary Oldman, the dresses, the scenery. We Americans like to romanticize anything European and American girls who work 8 hours a day and do laundry and dishes all night like to daydream about the pretty dresses and horses and carriages and handsome men in knee breeches. My daydream is always interrupted by the realities of wigs dusted with insecticide, no hot running water(I think B was the only person getting a regular bath in Vienna), no medical care except for bleeding and leeches, my personal favorites, no birth control save for sponges and lemon juice and no anesthesia during childbirth. Bah humbug, I am not the champion of the chick flick nor the romance novel and I certainly don't favor this stuff at the expense of The Master. Did IB show one positive thing about B? Call me crazy, with so many interesting, factual things that could shown in a movie about B, why do they have to make things up? Because filmmakers think Americans are so dumb they can't appreciate subtleties and because attention spans are so short(thanks to the filmmakers)that it's a race to make their point before the audience leaves to watch a Schwarzenegger film. So you think it's a good thing to expose people to B in this form. I've seen 100 posts on various B forums from people who think that movie is a true story. Oh, but perhaps they're on the path to enlightenment.

Better to have a concert tour of B's music with half naked podium dancers, flames, smoke, laser beams and a female conductor wearing a thong.

I don't know about you guys, but I feel much better.

To my health!

Suz

Kevin
01-13-2001, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Suzie:
On Michael's good advise, I got my hands on the movie "Beethoven's Nephew", a much better film, I think, than the overly emotional, inaccurate, chick flick, IB. It does not, as IB does, portray The Master as a drunken lunatic, but more of the curmudgeon we know him to be. Johanna is portrayed as amiable, inept and as loose as we know her to be. B's friends tolerate him as we hope they would have. The events that are accurate occur out of order and in the wrong locations, the people they occur with are not the correct people, the fellow who plays the nephew doesn't act but looks serious and pouts like a Calvin Klein ad. I didn't say I loved it.

IB is a pretty movie, Gary Oldman, the dresses, the scenery. We Americans like to romanticize anything European and American girls who work 8 hours a day and do laundry and dishes all night like to daydream about the pretty dresses and horses and carriages and handsome men in knee breeches. My daydream is always interrupted by the realities of wigs dusted with insecticide, no hot running water(I think B was the only person getting a regular bath in Vienna), no medical care except for bleeding and leeches, my personal favorites, no birth control save for sponges and lemon juice and no anesthesia during childbirth. Bah humbug, I am not the champion of the chick flick nor the romance novel and I certainly don't favor this stuff at the expense of The Master. Did IB show one positive thing about B? Call me crazy, with so many interesting, factual things that could shown in a movie about B, why do they have to make things up? Because filmmakers think Americans are so dumb they can't appreciate subtleties and because attention spans are so short(thanks to the filmmakers)that it's a race to make their point before the audience leaves to watch a Schwarzenegger film. So you think it's a good thing to expose people to B in this form. I've seen 100 posts on various B forums from people who think that movie is a true story. Oh, but perhaps they're on the path to enlightenment.

Better to have a concert tour of B's music with half naked podium dancers, flames, smoke, laser beams and a female conductor wearing a thong.

I don't know about you guys, but I feel much better.

To my health!

Suz

Suz,

You are so on target with this issue of IB and the feeble attempts to fit LvB to standards of pop culture and, thereby, perpeturate misinformation regarding the Master. Nothing to add.

To your health!

I think I'm in love.

Luis
01-13-2001, 11:46 PM
Oh my...Iíve just finished reading Solomonís chapter concerning Bís nephew and I think is an insult to both Beethoven and Freud and to biographical research in general!!! What a crap!!! I havenít finished the entire book yet so maybe weíll discuss it more extensively (and calmly...) later but this chapter is the biggest attempt of unpunished speculation Iíve ever read. The psychological analysis here is of a poorer order than any other coming from the worst feminine TV show or magazine!

Suzie
01-15-2001, 01:16 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kevin:
[B] Suz,

You are so on target with this issue of IB and the feeble attempts to fit LvB to standards of pop culture and, thereby, perpeturate misinformation regarding the Master. Nothing to add.

To your health!

Kevin,

Thank you for being so sensible.

I think I'm in love.

Or maybe it's just the glow of righteousness http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

To your health!

Suz

Suzie
01-15-2001, 01:18 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Luis:
[B]Oh my...Iíve just finished reading Solomonís chapter concerning Bís nephew and I think is an insult to both Beethoven and Freud and to biographical research in general!!! What a crap!!! I havenít finished the entire book yet so maybe weíll discuss it more extensively (and calmly...) later but this chapter is the biggest attempt of unpunished speculation Iíve ever read. The psychological analysis here is of a poorer order than any other coming from the worst feminine TV show or magazine!

Well said, Luis! I read the whole book. I don't think it gets much better.

Suz

Serge
01-15-2001, 01:58 AM
I guess I'm on the wrong forum here. Shame on all of you. Suzie, to call the characterization of Ludwig in I.M. as a "drunken lunatic" is as reckless as anything you have a beef with in the same movie. To my count, the movie shows him drink a beer once, and that is after Ludwig gets depressed over the loss of years of effort in training Karl. I don't know about you, but to claim someone who drinks after a depressing day as a drunk is pretty silly.

Lack of subtleties? The whole movie was more subtle and more emotionally complex than the Hollywood tripe you rage against. I have a suggestion to all those who are so ready to rant against the work of those who actually bothered to make a film that was characteristically true: Buy/rent a dvd player, rent the I.M. disc, put the director commentary on, and listen to the reasoning behind the film. Then once that's over with, drop all your prejudices and unreachable expectations, and actually THINK about what the film wanted to say. If you're objective, and not drowned in a sea of incurable Beethoven idolatry, you may actually see why this movie worked. Get back to me once you've tried this.

Oh, and Luis, to claim that Solomon's thoughful attempt to dig deeper into Beethoven's psyche as crap is as narrow-mided as Rod claiming nothing but a period performance matters. There is a difference between saying something is not to your liking and dismissing it as worthless.

Rod
01-15-2001, 08:42 AM
Originally posted by Luis:
Oh my...Iíve just finished reading Solomonís chapter concerning Bís nephew and I think is an insult to both Beethoven and Freud and to biographical research in general!!! What a crap!!! I havenít finished the entire book yet so maybe weíll discuss it more extensively (and calmly...) later but this chapter is the biggest attempt of unpunished speculation Iíve ever read. The psychological analysis here is of a poorer order than any other coming from the worst feminine TV show or magazine!

This the essence of the critisism I have made of Solomon myself, and he writes in the same manner in his 'Beethoven Essay's' also. Yet to critisise this 'god' of Beethoven writing tends to get you into trouble, but no worries for the critisism is just and valid.

Rod

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Serge
01-15-2001, 02:34 PM
"Gets you in trouble"? Of course. Solomon did a fine job.

Suzie
01-17-2001, 01:39 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Serge:
[B]I guess I'm on the wrong forum here. Shame on all of you. Suzie, to call the characterization of Ludwig in I.M. as a "drunken lunatic" is as reckless as anything you have a beef with in the same movie. To my count, the movie shows him drink a beer once, and that is after Ludwig gets depressed over the loss of years of effort in training Karl. I don't know about you, but to claim someone who drinks after a depressing day as a drunk is pretty silly.


Not always drunken, but a madman through most of the film with none of his positive attributes shown.

Lack of subtleties? The whole movie was more subtle and more emotionally complex than the Hollywood tripe you rage against.

Maybe their were subtleties, but what does it matter to me if it's all 'make believe'?


I have a suggestion to all those who are so ready to rant against the work of those who actually bothered to make a film that was characteristically true: Buy/rent a dvd player, rent the I.M. disc, put the director commentary on, and listen to the reasoning behind the film. Then once that's over with, drop all your prejudices and unreachable expectations, and actually THINK about what the film wanted to say. If you're objective, and not drowned in a sea of incurable Beethoven idolatry, you may actually see why this movie worked. Get back to me once you've tried this.

Sorry I trashed your favorite movie. After I saw it I promised myself I'd never waste my time on it again, so I certainly wouldn't pay cash money to rent a dvd and a player. My money was much better spent on 'Thayer's. You may get a kick out of such detailed, factual information. I absolutely love "Amadeus" and their is barely a fact in it!

Oh, and Luis, to claim that Solomon's thoughful attempt to dig deeper into Beethoven's psyche as crap is as narrow-mided as Rod claiming nothing but a period performance matters. There is a difference between saying something is not to your liking and dismissing it as worthless.

Solomon had a good new angle to make money with his Beethoven book, psychoanalysis. One problem I see is that he's not a psychiatrist. The book sounds like he posed certain questions to his 'shrink' friend and got the desired replies that fell within the constraints of his theme. I was fascinated by the book, but after I read some substantial books by his close friends I got a whole new sense of B. This is my goal: getting close to the real B, not Solomon's B and not the Hollywood movie version.

If you enjoyed the movie you enjoyed the movie. I take my B very seriosly.

Suz

Suzie
01-17-2001, 01:40 AM
Have you seen "Beethoven's Nephew"?