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euphony131
01-12-2001, 12:04 AM
Hi all,

Recently obtained David Zinman and the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich's Complete Beethoven symphony cycle (only had the Ninth before), and now I'm still trying to pick my jaw off the floor -- this has to be the finest Beethoven cycle I've EVER heard. Talk about Dynamism!

Self-appointed "Torch-bearers" and "Purists" will decry the fast tempos and sheer exuberance, but then these interpretations are meant to approximate B's ACTUAL (and hitherto unabided) intentions. Though I thought Sir Charles Mackerras's cycle was also very fresh and exciting.

Frankly, I think all this preoccupation with "Period" performances and "Purity" is a lot of balderdash. If you want to be a REAL "Purist" then you should play all of Beethoven's symphonies off-key, out-of-tune, and full of mistakes since that's how his work was initially approached by musicians. Beethoven wrote music so ahead of his time that much of it couldn't even be performed correctly till instruments capable enough came along. B. knew he was writing for the future; when a violinist once complained about the difficulty of one of his string quartets, B. stated to the effect: "That's because it's music for a later age."

So I think the best way of honoring B. is by using the most modern equipement available and by re-examining the scores for the Maestro's true intentions, just as Zinman has done. And WOW! Are the results spectacular!

That brings me (in a roundabout way) to my original inquiry -- I would dearly love to see Zinman and his 97-member orchestra LIVE, but can't seem to find a program for them online. They are based in Zurich, Switzerland. Might anyone have info on their concert dates and tickets? Thank you!!!

Rod
01-12-2001, 06:09 AM
Originally posted by euphony131:
Hi all,

Recently obtained David Zinman and the Tonhalle Orchestra Zurich's Complete Beethoven symphony cycle (only had the Ninth before), and now I'm still trying to pick my jaw off the floor -- this has to be the finest Beethoven cycle I've EVER heard. Talk about Dynamism!

Self-appointed "Torch-bearers" and "Purists" will decry the fast tempos and sheer exuberance, but then these interpretations are meant to approximate B's ACTUAL (and hitherto unabided) intentions. Though I thought Sir Charles Mackerras's cycle was also very fresh and exciting.

Frankly, I think all this preoccupation with "Period" performances and "Purity" is a lot of balderdash. If you want to be a REAL "Purist" then you should play all of Beethoven's symphonies off-key, out-of-tune, and full of mistakes since that's how his work was initially approached by musicians. Beethoven wrote music so ahead of his time that much of it couldn't even be performed correctly till instruments capable enough came along. B. knew he was writing for the future; when a violinist once complained about the difficulty of one of his string quartets, B. stated to the effect: "That's because it's music for a later age."

So I think the best way of honoring B. is by using the most modern equipement available and by re-examining the scores for the Maestro's true intentions, just as Zinman has done. And WOW! Are the results spectacular!

That brings me (in a roundabout way) to my original inquiry -- I would dearly love to see Zinman and his 97-member orchestra LIVE, but can't seem to find a program for them online. They are based in Zurich, Switzerland. Might anyone have info on their concert dates and tickets? Thank you!!!

I don't know what all the fuss is about regarding Zinman's recordings, all he is doing is replicating what has been done on a number of earlier period instrument sets, only without the advantage of period instruments 9 - the advantages of which you are obviously unaware (and what about baroque music? - only a complete fool would say this sounds better played 'modern'!). I don't like the sound quality of these recordings, nor are the performances unduely meritous from what I have heard of them - they wouldn't make me let my Hanover Band set gather dust, out of tune or not! You should give the musicians of B's time a little more sympathy, is was common of them to play a new work with little or no rehearsal, a problem exasserbated by the more complex (at that time) direction required for many of B's works. Yet todays orchestras fair little better after 200 years practise!! I find it astonishing that whilst to aprove of the quest to hear Beethoven as the man himself intended yet you belittle the period instrument movement that obviously influenced Zinman himself! By the way MacKerras is also a period instrument conductor on occasion! I have a very good authentic version of the violin concerto directed by him. Seems you're a closet authentic instrument fan living in denial!

By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

euphony131
01-12-2001, 08:34 AM
Rod,

Well, we obviously differ in our views about "Period" versus "Modern" playing. But what I find curious is that you readily go to AC/DC concerts (as noted in a prior post) and apparently savor lots of pop music, yet dread the thought of any Classical piece played on 20th century instruments. Huh? On top of that, you think nothing about bashing the likes of Gardiner and Previn, going so far to condemn the bulk of classical recordings as worthy of extinction. Hmmm...

Now I'm not an "elitist" and I'm not saying one can't listen to pop music while still enjoying Classical, but you seem to reserve all your vitriol EXCLUSIVELY for Classical and all its "lameness." Is Pop music really so perfect in comparision in your estimate? Even more parodoxical is that you apparently enjoy the "electricity" of an AD/DC concert but can't stand the idea of a pop-stylized Classical concert. In addition, you admitted (in the ULTIMATE post) you didn't even know of Gardiner's Bach recordings yet you dismissed the man entirely. Really, I'm not sure how to approach all that -- so I'll reserve comment on it.

But FYI, Gardiner's Bach recordings are largely done on PERIOD (there's your magic word!) instruments and are truly exquisite.

In truth, the term "period" instrument is a misnomer. The instruments used in so-called "period" performances are not actually 200 years old but are replicas made in the Modern-Day. I remember at the museum in Vienna of looking upon some actual instruments from the time of Mozart and Beethoven and just couldn't believe how "crude" they looked. The replicas that today's orchestras use are not anywhere near the same level of roughness. So, it's not really a "Period" performance is it?

Stradivarus notwithstanding, many instruments of the past were just not made very well. No wonder Beethoven always felt so hampered by the technology of his time! You can argue the semantics of "age" all you want, but what is irrefutable is that a lot of what B. wrote was viewed as "impossible" by his comtempories. Even an early work like the "Cantata on the Death of Joseph the II" was deemed "unplayable" and was not performed in his own lifetime. And let's not forget all the hassles he endured trying to coax players to play the Ninth as he wanted (and they still mucked it up!).

It took the advent of Modern instruments to bring out the full sonic range of his compositions. Would you really prefer to hear the Hammerklavier on an archiac piano-forte versus a Modern-Day Steinway? Do you think B. would? Do you think B. wrote music so that a 21st century audience could hear it on decrepit instruments that he himself deemed as "inadequate?" Can you deny he was always in search of a piano powerful and evolved enough to contain his enormous ideas?

Well, I'm not going to carry this on further. We could go on and on in circles arguing the merits of "Period" verus "Modern" or AC/DC versus Gardiner, etc., etc., though personally, I'll take a "lame" Gardiner or Previn over the "best" of Britney Spears or AC/DC any day -- but maybe that's just me, so who cares, right?

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.

PS -- Actually I'm just being a little "cheeky" as the English say. Don't take offense. I feel a kind of bond with all who can enjoy B's music (in whatever form). I know you must admire Beethoven otherwise you wouldn'be be here. Somewhere under that "bitter" exterior is a lover of Classical music, yes? Take it easy. Relax. Put on Gardiner's Bach Mass in B minor. You'll like it. Really. http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

PPS -- Whew! That out of the way...does anyone know of Zinman's concert program?

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 01-12-2001).]

Rod
01-12-2001, 09:27 AM
I hope all this consistant comparison of classical and pop music in competition with each other is not undertaken in academic circles, because the whole notion is ludicrous. Regarding Gardiner, you did not read my posting correctly, for I said I had his Handel and Beethoven recordings, enough to make a judgement of his style, which I'm my opinion can on occasion be unfeeling and/or uninspired (but perhaps his style is better suited to Bach than B or H). I'm not surprised you approve of Gardiner, for his Beethoven symphony recordings are the least 'period sounding' of all those available in this genre (a point noted by at least one press critic I read). Period instruments alone are not enough to guarantee a good interpretation, but in the right hands they WILL produce the BEST interpretation. As is perhaps exampled by Gardiners Bach Mass I have not heard (and via which you contradict your own notions about period instruments)? With respect, your amateurish critisism of these instruments is not worthy of my response. Just being a bit cheeky myself.

Rod


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Suzie
01-12-2001, 10:27 AM
By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

Here we go again!

S

~Leslie
01-12-2001, 11:06 AM
Let the Games Begin!!!

Quote from Mr. Euphony:

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

Suzie
01-12-2001, 12:40 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ~Leslie:
[B]Let the Games Begin!!!

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~

Hey,

AC/DC rocks!

SMB

Rod
01-12-2001, 01:34 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Let the Games Begin!!!

Quote from Mr. Euphony:

BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************

ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!

No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~



Agreed, as I am not intersted in the usual fare of metal either. I have probably bought more cd's by Karajan et al than my detractors here put together, but the final word is not theirs.

Rod



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

Rod
01-12-2001, 01:39 PM
Originally posted by Suzie:
By 'later age' B meant a later state of mind and taste, a state we have yet to reach in my opinion.

Rod

Here we go again!

S

Well, some people will just not be told...

Rod



------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

PDG
01-12-2001, 02:07 PM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
Let the Games Begin!!!
Quote from Mr. Euphony:
BTW, I've been keeping a running list and it appears that not only do you hate Gardiner, Haitink, and Previn, but now Zinman as well. Hmmmm... shall we add Von Karajan, Bernstein, Furtwangler, Szell, and Klemperer too? Oh, let's not forget the "lame" Mahler and Berlioz -- they were conductors too. Ah heck, why don't we just burn the lot of them! Well, have fun at your next AC/DC concert, good thing you won't be listening to any "lame" conductors.
**************************
[B] ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!
No lamer than the usual fare of metal pentatonic wankers! LOL!~


Always nice to see quaint, old-fashioned, English colloquialisms being used, Les! http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/wink.gif

Suzie
01-12-2001, 03:39 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Rod:
[B] Well, some people will just not be told...

Rod

It's like bangin' your head against the wall. I have my Hanover Band to soothe the ache.

Suz

~Leslie
01-12-2001, 08:23 PM
Suzie, Rod, PDG, and Mr. Epiphany, Thank you for the best laugh I've had all day.
Cheers<g> ~Les

euphony131
01-12-2001, 08:52 PM
LOL! Rod, us two "cheeky" guys just need to sit down, have a coupla' stiff ones and laugh this out. You bring your Hanover, I'll bring my Zinman and together we'll "rock" the whole bar! Sound good?

BTW, what does "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!" mean?

Uhhh...and now about Zinman's concert program? Anyone?

~Leslie
01-12-2001, 10:50 PM
It means:

Rolling on floor laughing my (pentatonic)axe off.~

Suzie
01-13-2001, 01:03 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]LOL! Rod, us two "cheeky" guys just need to sit down, have a coupla' stiff ones and laugh this out. You bring your Hanover, I'll bring my Zinman and together we'll "rock" the whole bar! Sound good?

BTW, what does "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!" mean?

Uhhh...and now about Zinman's concert program? Anyone?

Mr. 131,

Well, the only one we can ask is Leonard. So I will and I'll get back to you.

Suz

Suzie
01-13-2001, 01:05 AM
Originally posted by ~Leslie:
It means:

Rolling on floor laughing my (pentatonic)axe off.~

Les,

I'll have what you're having.

Suz

Suzie
01-15-2001, 01:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by euphony131:
[B]LOL! Rod, us two "cheeky" guys just need to sit down, have a coupla' stiff ones and laugh this out. You bring your Hanover, I'll bring my Zinman and together we'll "rock" the whole bar! Sound good?

BTW, what does "ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!" mean?

Uhhh...and now about Zinman's concert program? Anyone?

Leo suggests http://www.kulturinfo.ch/

Good luck.

Suz

Serge
01-15-2001, 01:43 AM
Very interesting....

So, Rod, dare I presume that you have banished from your existence any form of recorded medium involving an instrument dating past 1850 or so? I can't understand your deep and hostile reactions to anything played on modern instruments. It would be okay to say you prefer period performances, but you in the same breath tend to claim that new performances aren't worth the time or energy spent complaining about them. That, of course, is deeply imposing on those who actually find worth in new recordings. Come on. If music does not evolve, it dies. I don't particularly enjoy period performances, but I don't claim them worse than modern ones.

You must know that Bach was a strong adherent to the advancement of musical technology, that Beethoven wrote for the most advanced pianos of the day and crazy, messed-up things like Panharmonicums, and that Berlioz and Wagner both enjoyed scoring for orchestras beyond the normal size. The variety available now in the choice of how we listen to music is incredible. Don't denigrate modern instruments just because you have hard feelings for them.

Rod
01-15-2001, 07:32 AM
Originally posted by Serge:
Very interesting....

So, Rod, dare I presume that you have banished from your existence any form of recorded medium involving an instrument dating past 1850 or so? I can't understand your deep and hostile reactions to anything played on modern instruments. It would be okay to say you prefer period performances, but you in the same breath tend to claim that new performances aren't worth the time or energy spent complaining about them. That, of course, is deeply imposing on those who actually find worth in new recordings. Come on. If music does not evolve, it dies. I don't particularly enjoy period performances, but I don't claim them worse than modern ones.


First of all I want to say something about Gardiner, I never said I hated him, and have recommended his Beethoven Masses on many occasions, a few of the B symphonies are good also, but the remainder is very lack lustre (his 6th is one of the worst I have heard, the 3rd have lame tempi in the last 3 movements whilst the 1st movement is quick but heavy handed, the 1st symphony is recorded in a vacuum, the 4th's adagio is very slow, the 7th's allegretto is bland, the 9th's adagio and scherzo are bland. But No 5 and 2 and 8 are pretty good). It was just that I expected more from this darling of the concert hall. His B concertos are unimaginative also.

No to your point, I have no problems with music of whatever ear being played on instruments it was written for - you can't play jazz on a Walter, whereas Mozart and Haydn sound rather lame on a Steinway. I take it as a basic concept that composers write in general for instruments as they know them, regardless of their opinions of these instruments. B praised highly some pianos of his own time - he remained loyal to Streicher from his youth to the end of his days. B did write for the very best pianos only, and it took time for the best to become the standard, but I would say that B was at most only about 5-7 years ahead of manufacturers as a whole in his ideal for the piano. I simply suggest that the notes he wrote suit the nuances of the old instruments rather than that of instruments 200 years later. I have heard a Streicher of 1854, now with iron frame and English action, in a Beethoven museum that sounds nothing like a Steinway whatsoever - so are you assuming that B's intentions just jumped over this period to the begining of the 20th Century? B's music was written to be performed when it was written, thus common sence would dictate he would write for the best instruments on offer, and that if he by some mirace had access to a modern piano he would have wrote quite differently for it. There is nothing radical in this position.

Originally posted by Serge:

You must know that Bach was a strong adherent to the advancement of musical technology, that Beethoven wrote for the most advanced pianos of the day and crazy, messed-up things like Panharmonicums, and that Berlioz and Wagner both enjoyed scoring for orchestras beyond the normal size. The variety available now in the choice of how we listen to music is incredible. Don't denigrate modern instruments just because you have hard feelings for them.

Perhaps you should bare in mind that the vast majority of orchestras used gut stringing throughout the Romantic period, the introduction of steel strings being a C20th invention - the introduction of which was cursed by many comentators. I don't have hard feelings for modern instruments, but they weren't designed for Beethoven's music primarily in mind. The technical advances made in woodwind instruments had nothing whatsoever to do with Beethoven, for example. Don't denigrate old instruments just because they conflict with your preconceptions - the music always must come first, inconveniences to musicians second.

Rod


------------------
"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin

[This message has been edited by Rod (edited 01-15-2001).]

Serge
01-15-2001, 02:36 PM
I don't denigrate period instruments.

euphony131
01-16-2001, 05:57 AM
Hey Serge! How's it going! Been meaning to call you or you call me whichevers.

Anyway, I don't think we ought to press this issue out any further with Rod. It becomes a matter of banging your head against the wall. LOL!

Rod -- For the record, I never dismissed Period recordings per se, on the contrary I've heard some spectacular ones a' la Gardiner's Bach (which you have not listened to). I just feel it's unfair to so callously dismiss ALL modern instrument playing (including some Period -- via Gardiner!) as something heinous and deserving "extinction." You implied as much when you summarily dismissed the likes of Gardiner, Previn and Haitink as so much worthless trash whose recordings we would be better off without (see your replies in the "ULTIMATE Beethoven concert..." thread).

I feel that maybe a little more "open-mindedness" might be in order. That's all. Particularly from a person who "jams" on electric guitar to the tunes of AC/DC! And no, I'm not "trashing" pop music, I'm just pointing out the disparity in your own position.

It's true I feel WELL-DONE modern instrument performances (such as Zinman's) are generally more dynamic and crisper than Period ones, however I still have great respect for those who have performed miracles with period playing (like -- again -- Gardiner). Though I sometimes wonder what they could've achieved had they used Modern instruments. But needless, I understand the "scholarly" importance of Period research which in turn translates to better "Modern" playing, and sometimes even visa-versa! You see? We're not that far apart after all!

Ultimately of course it all comes down to what YOU prefer. If you like the "aged" sound of Period-style playing -- than POWER to you! Bravo! You go for it! You prefer aged Scotch over a fresh Guinness -- ok, fine. But please don't assume everything else is pure rubbish destined for the fire. Didn't you yourself admit to enjoying Von Karajan? Goodness! So you do occasionally like Modern instrument playing after all!

Well that is THAT. Finito! Rod -- we're just asking you lighten up a little. Why does it have to be ALL OR NOTHING? Is there not room for both? (Even I like "aged Scotch" once in awhile!) If ain't the Hanover Band then just toss it on the fire??? Come on! Why is any other interpretaion utter Blasphemy??? Zinman himself poured over the very latest in musicology research and reams of notes (some from Beethoven's own conversation books and letters) to get to the heart of the maestro -- you're going to tell me that has no merit whatsoever just because he didn't have the "gumption" to use instruments that were antedulivian?

We can go on and on and on and on and on about the semantics of musical Integrity, Authenticity, Intentions and blah-blah. But I won't. In fact, I don't think I want to even follow this thread any further.

Now Rod, let's you and me hold hands -- yes, you too Serge -- let's all hold hands and tell each other what a wonderful, sunny and happy day it's going to be and how we're all going to get along and be nice to one another and do one good thing today because "It's Good to be Good." http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Ahhhhhh..wasn't that nice?


[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 01-16-2001).]

[This message has been edited by euphony131 (edited 01-16-2001).]

Rod
01-16-2001, 07:49 AM
Originally posted by euphony131:
Hey Serge! How's it going! Been meaning to call you or you call me whichevers.

Anyway, I don't think we ought to press this issue out any further with Rod. It becomes a matter of banging your head against the wall. LOL!

Rod -- For the record, I never dismissed Period recordings per se, on the contrary I've heard some spectacular ones a' la Gardiner's Bach (which you have not listened to). I just feel it's unfair to so callously dismiss ALL modern instrument playing (including some Period -- via Gardiner!) as something heinous and deserving "extinction." You implied as much when you summarily dismissed the likes of Gardiner, Previn and Haitink as so much worthless trash whose recordings we would be better off without.


What deserved extinction was not some particular style of playing, but rather some compositions!! I dismiss playing that is simply incorrect for this particular music. Most Beethoven recordings are pretty forgetable, so if we could remove these from the shelves the better ones would gain more attention.

Originally posted by euphony131:

I feel that maybe a little more "open-mindedness" might be in order. That's all. Particularly from a person who "jams" on electric guitar to the tunes of AC/DC! And no, I'm not "trashing" pop music, I'm just pointing out the disparity in your own position.

It's true I feel WELL-DONE modern instrument performances (such as Zinman's) are generally more dynamic and crisper than Period ones, however I still have great respect for those who have performed miracles with period playing (like -- again -- Gardiner). Though I sometimes wonder what they could've achieved had they used Modern instruments. But needless, I understand the "scholarly" importance of Period research which in turn translates to better "Modern" playing, and sometimes even visa-versa! You see? We're not that far apart after all!


I suggest it is YOU who needs to have his mind opened, you are simply following the status quo wheras I am trying to inject some realism. Modern instruments simply do not sound right for music such as Beethovens, and modern playing techniques exasserbate this situation. We are not all that far appart - Zinman is a move in the right direction, but why didn't he go one step further and find a period orch to conduct? Why all the excitement about these recordings which are not particularly revolutionary to my period experienced ears?

Originally posted by euphony131:

Ultimately of course it all comes down to what YOU prefer. If you like the "aged" sound of Period-style playing -- than POWER to you! Bravo! You go for it! You prefer aged Scotch over a fresh Guinness -- ok, fine. But please don't assume everything else is pure rubbish destined for the fire. Didn't you yourself admit to enjoying Von Karajan? Goodness! So you do occasionally like Modern instrument playing after all!


Period performance does not sound 'aged'!! It is the modern style that makes the music sound old fashioned!! Imagine a great painting covered in layers of dirt, then seeing it restored to its original freshness and glory.

Originally posted by euphony131:

Well that is THAT. Finito! Rod -- we're just asking you lighten up a little. Why does it have to be ALL OR NOTHING? Is there not room for both? (Even I like "aged Scotch" once in awhile!) If ain't the Hanover Band then just toss it on the fire??? Come on! Why is any other interpretaion utter Blasphemy??? Zinman himself poured over the very latest in musicology research and reams of notes (some from Beethoven's own conversation books and letters) to get to the heart of the maestro -- you're going to tell me that has no merit whatsoever just because he didn't have the "gumption" to use instruments that were antedulivian?


If people put words into my mouth, I always have to come back to put matters straight, who said the Hanover Band were beyond reproach? There set is not perfect either, but there is a spirited freshness about them and the I like the sound. I just expect more after 15 years. Zinman's research it to be credited, but he has not taken it to its logical conclusion. You can get the essence of the master on modern instruments, but I want more than the essence, I want the whole picture! Authenticity is not a side-show issue, its the biggest, indeed the ONLY issue.

Originally posted by euphony131:

Now Rod, let's you and me hold hands -- yes, you too Serge -- let's all hold hands tell each other what a wonderful, sunny and happy day it's going to be and how we're all going to get along and be nice to one another and do one good thing today because "It's Good to be Good." http://www.gyrix.com/~cgraye/ubb/smile.gif

Ahhhhhh..wasn't that nice?

If we are only here to sit around and pat each other on the back, what's the point of being here, nothing new or interesting would ever come of it and we'd end up in a sickly guey soup of sentimentality. I'll happily argue the authentic cause until one of you can provide a better argument to the contrary. So you better start thinking if all this bores you!

Rod


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"If I were but of noble birth..." - Rod Corkin